Fast hands

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Postby BaguaMonk » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:01 am

While that might be true, I see alot of modern day WC practicioners hardly put any power into their punches. I saw a video of an old WC master the other day, and he had incredible fa jing (even old with a big belly), you could see the power CLEARLY come from his legs and waist, even with minimum (non-exaggerated) movements. Chain punching is great and all, but I've seen many WC practicioners get taken down all too quickly by good MMA fighters or atheletes.All the WC schools I'm starting too see are either too "reality oriented" or not enough.

Its not so easy as to jab the eyes, first of all actually jabbing the eyes with full speed and precision is not easy. Now try it on a moving target, who constantly and randomly ducks his head slightly, or moves his head in case a punch comes his way. Maybe when a person is sitting stationary like in the clip, it might work. But as in another topic, most people have almost lightning fast natural reactions to move, blink or do anything to avoid getting jabbed in eyes (even if it costs them getting hit).In a spontaneous situation, pre-emptive strike, you could get lucky.

As most masters say, chi sau is not fighting, not even close. Like push hands, its a sensitivity and developing (strikes, blocks etc.) tool.

I'm starting to go the route of how most MMA's talk about this kind of stuff. I hear many WC people say "I can easily beat ground fighters because they arent prepared for my vital point hiting!" or that if they are on ground that simply gouging eyes out works, its not that easy, especially when you are getting pounded on by someone on top of you. And if you did you are givng them an arm bar.

Honestly, I dont see anything impressive about the fast hands clip. I see no real power, intention, or fighting skill. I see shoulders lurched up, sacrificing power for speed, an opponent (less skilled) that is just sitting there letting it happen. While I think its impressive in the chi sau sense, I definitely don't see it in a fighting skill sense. The face is the most heavily protected place, yes even by MMA's. I love WC, but sometimes its structure seems so confining to me :( It is true that by closing and opening chest cavity you can generate power. But usually not enough (on its own), and I didn't really see any of that there, but eh, its just my opinion.
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Postby jellybean » Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:16 am

hahaha it sure looks nice, but if he does it correctly hes probably not gonna have all that speed.

Where's his heavy elbows? <- thats all i know about wing chung :wink:

Oh and a... not very practicle, the other guy's just standing there and letting him do his 300 combo

but we have to give him credit for hard working

I love to watch it, it's fun
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Postby BaguaMonk » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:44 am

Also I have some BJJ/MMA friends who spar with me and some WC friends I have. The super fast punches, and/or chain punches, does almost nothing to them (MMA guys), especially not before they are taken to the ground in an almost instant shoot. And since WC is bound by its structure, and the stance is narrow, taking or picking up a WC guy up is not that hard (unless you have the ability of internal masters to shift weight internally). Heck, alot of these MMA guys will take HARD blows to the face in order to get a take-down, I don't see pitter patter punches doing much to them except distraction, and even then it wont stop a takedown. Most WC schools I've seen, alot of the kids have good chi sau skills, or might be even/fast and have technique, but they have no real rooting or power.

The way I've stopped takedowns through KF structure is by using either a sprawl, or a gong bu stance. If you have a STRONG gong bu (or horse) stance, and shift back into one when someone collides with you, it is much easier to hold them off. In fact, I've had guys bigger than me try to lift up my front leg with both arms and as long as my Center of Gravity was low, they couldn't, and by the time they tried something else I was easily able to redirect them to the floor (thanks to taichi).Really all you have to do is shift your front leg back into a gong bu (deep or high is up to situation) and attempt to apply a basic guillotine choke, or just push them down straight into floor by placing your arm above their head. If you can feel where their momentum is going through contact then taking a head on rusher is not hard at all, unless they are quicker than you and get a hold of both your legs before you even have a chance to do anything.

If anyone is good enough at WC, that they think they can take down Pride guys with pitter patter (but fast punches) to a moving target before getting taken down, please record it and post it :)
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Postby scramasax57 » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:54 pm

emin boztepe.

he's kind of an arrogant jerk, but he can fight.

i agree with you though.
aka eric hinds, 2nd stripe
n. andover, ma branch
yang's martial arts association

changchuan, baihe, and xingyi
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Postby Blarg » Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:09 am

Well, if the punches are pitter patter, they're not all that good wing chun.

I do believe that many people can take a punch or two, but that has little to do with the style of who's punching; only with the toughness of the guy taking the punch, the accuracy of the punches, and the skill of the puncher. What you're really saying is that some guys can take a strong punch or two. Fair enough. No reason to single WC out on that account. It's not exactly the only style that punches.

I do agree that Wing Chun tends to be taught in a way that hands come first and other things follow.

I just don't see why that is the devastating critique so many think it is. I obtained a 3rd degree in jiu-jitsu from a very old school master, and there were things I was vastly better at than others. Did that make what I learned uniquely worthless? No, not at all. Ironically, my study was in the same art now held up with the sort of wide-eyed adulation that karate, judo, and kung fu have each been held up to in the past. Has each proved worthless, or the discovery of each new art destroyed the worth of whatever wasn't the current celebrity in the fad culture of the West? Not at all. Our opinions may change a lot and we may be thrilled with our yapping, but the human body doesn't change and very few arts have little to offer of value. And all arts have shortcomings that could be addressed by wider study of other arts and deeper and more long-term studies of the one(s) we're in.

My hand work was weak after years in jiu-jitsu, but I was good at throws and locks, and could resist a throw pretty well too. But wing chun men sliced and diced my face with their hand techniques. I had a lot to learn! And as I did, I got some parity with the wing chun students on hands, over a matter of YEARS, and began to be able to apply jiu-jitsu more easily to them because of, not in spite of, a higher proficiency in wing chun.

Were either of my styles a joke and a waste of time? No. The limitation was me. As I grew, I became better able to apply both styles.

Blaming the styles or making knowing statements would have demeaned the arts I had studied from a basis of ignorance or faddishness, both of which seem pretty much all that is needed to make scornful pronouncements on martial arts in today's culture. I think it's time such foolishness stopped or at least really got some braking in and slowed way the heck down. Styles are not garbage if they are not perfect, and not necessarily even a little weak. They are what they are -- virtually always excellent in some respects and needing supplementation in others. We will never be good at our own style(s) if we expect them to provide magical bullets with which to slay all our enemies, and will never understand the value of other systems if we believe that we have achieved some sort of all-encompassing perfection just because we've signed up for one or the other styles or belief systems.

Mastery is still an entirely individual matter that no style or master, and no forum or yapping while watching UFC fights, for that matter, can do for anyone.

It's so bizarre to me to hear people say things like, "Wing Chun is weak in ground-fighting" or "jiu-jitsu is weak in hand work" instead of "Wing Chun is fantastic in handwork" and "jiu-jitsu is great in ground work." What on earth do people expect, anyway?
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Postby BaguaMonk » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:18 am

Sorry my last post came out as bashing WC.

It definitely is NOT pitter patter if the user is skilled. Its just that I already mentioned all my other points in other topics (about WC). I've seen very skilled people who can use full body and leg power to generte power in WC, but it is not very common. I see schools that teach these uber amazing combat skills, and forego the mysticism and tradition/culture, but at the cost of not developing the core elements that probably help you develop that power. Or I see schools that focus alot on the Chi Sau, and the idea of chi and meditation, and emphasize the center line, but no real fighting skill (but good sticky hands). The fact that (as every KF style) the style has an answer to everything, and that using uber fast eye jabs and groin kicks you can take down anyone!

IMO I Think WC is amazing, especially as a core art. But at as long as people are able to use it and adapt to the situation at hand, take what is needed, and will be detrimental to you (for example, against a groundfighter, or even a wrestler or experienced street fighter). And unlike alot of other KF styles, WC actually spars, or at least has a good hand drill (chi sau) to stimulate those areas of fighting.

I completely agree, don't take my critique as style bashing, at all. If anyone is against that, Its definitely me. Because if WC has flaws, then every martial art has flaws. I wasn't talking about the style itself, but more so about the current state of students and teachers. And I definitely agree with Bruce on developing a good core and structure, to finally being able to break free from it (not just WC, any MA). There is no such thing as worthless training, because even if you someone thinks it might be, that might lead them to the realization of something better for them.

I met one guy who was amazing with WC, and since he also studied xingyi, his methods were "lose" but direct and springy. He never assumed the WC stance, but it was very obvious that it was at his core when we touched hands and was able to use them (along with his legs) in a very skilled manner.
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Postby yat_chum » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:15 am

wing chun - no more phoney fast hand punching
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W6nJdgGrPDM
yijing zhidong

use stillness to overcome movement
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