YMAA Iron Palm?

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YMAA Iron Palm?

Postby Flip » Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:49 pm

Does YMAA have an iron palm program? I'm embarking on this beginning tonight and, while my sifu is excellent and has tonnes of knowledge, i'm always interested in hearing about other school's approach to things
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Postby Dvivid » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:59 pm

Hi,

YMAA doesn't train Iron Palm (aka Red Sand Palm)

"There are ways to develop (the body) and make it stronger, but damaging it permanently is not one of them." - Dr. Yang

Here's an article by Master Yang where he explains that causing yourself permanent nerve damage in your hands to impress people is not smart:

Image
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Iron Palm, etc.

Postby gmc » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:09 pm

Interesting to hear that you are beginning your iron palm training now. Who is your teacher, may I ask? And can you describe the training a little bit? As far as the dangers of iron palm/arm/fist/body training, there are some prominent masters who recommend this training.

In the book "Kung Fu Elements" by Shou-Yu Liang and Wen-Ching Wu, these topics are covered extensively in Chapter Six. There is another book called "Ultimate Iron Palm" by Wing Lam. It is worth reading, as it refutes many of the commonly held myths about the dangers of iron palm training. As in any kind of training, incorrect methods can surely cause problems. Correct methods for training iron palm include warming up properly, proper alignments while striking bags, gradual increase in hardness of bags, and the use of special dit da jows. These jows are used to disperse stuck chi and stagnation after training. So, maybe it's best not to throw Iron training out the window completely.
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iron palm

Postby dc » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:47 pm

nerve damage aside, i think master yang's opinion of iron palm is derived from the fact that it has no practical value in today's society and he is hesitant about teaching something that can only be used to harm. apparently some of his white crane classmates misused the training and ended up severely hurting other people.

instead of training iron palm that entire time, you could take up golf instead. you would be a pro!
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iron palm

Postby gmc » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:56 pm

Wing Lam states: "....Your hands contain the terminal points for most of the meridians, along with a multitude of important acupressure and acupuncture points. The day-to-day routines of slapping the front and back of each hand against the practice bags stimulates the qi flow in these meridians, resulting in an overall balancing flow in the body...."

That sounds like a practical reason to learn Iron palm in today's society.
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Postby scramasax57 » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:21 am

it also makes you sterile and in some cases impotent. have fun with that.

you're right dc. master yang refuses to teach high-level iron palm because a few of his white crane classmates misused it very badly. iron palm makes people overconfident, and it isn't necessary if you're not engaging in hand-to-hand combat on a daily basis. of course, if you are, go for it. are you?
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Postby darth_freak » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:17 am

practicing tuishou or qigong (which also balance the qi flow in the body) would be far more interesting...what are you gonna do once you get an iron palm?
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iron palm, etc.

Postby gmc » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:05 am

From Wing Lam's book: "We have never encountered impotence caused by Iron Palm practice--not even improper practice in its worst form. The typical results of impractice are much more mundane, although they can be debilitating." The key words are "improper practice", because correct practice has numerous benefits, according to Sifu Wing Lam who is recognized as an expert in Iron Palm, having actually trained it.

So, the question would be who told you it causes impotence and sterility? Is that in Dr. Yang's book or Liang Shou yu book? As for the reasons for conditioning one's hands--I presume people here practice martial art. It is for conditioning. If Dr. Yang had classmates who misused their power, that seems to be a character flaw in those people. There are masters who recommend this kind of training and those who do not recommend it. Dr. Yang happens to be one of those who does not recommend it.
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Postby scramasax57 » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:52 pm

i'm not saying you shouldn't do it. i'm giving the reasons i don't.

conditioning the hands is one thing. i hit a 120 pound canvas bag at least three times a week for a half hour or so, no tape or gloves. i make sure to use jow and massage afterwards. i'm pretty happy with the condition of my hands. i don't feel the need to make them devoid of all feeling. i don't fight enough to make it worth it. if you decide it is necessary to do so, that is of course your decision and i respect it. i choose to follow master yang's advice.
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iron palm, etc.

Postby gmc » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:48 pm

It's great that you follow Dr. Yang's advice, I don't deny that he is a great master and very knowledgeable. However, you keep making statements that are not very well thought out, e.g., saying that iron training makes your hands devoid of all feeling. You seem to assume that anyone who trains iron palm is doing it incorrectly, hence destroying their hands. Believe it or not, there are people who practice Iron Palm correctly, as it was passed down to them. They retain full sensitivity in their hands, live normal lives, and don't go around killing people. In fact, they practice for their own reasons, which may be too numerous to enumerate at this time. It's foolish to assume that they train iron palm in order to impress others.
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Postby DOM » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:32 pm

This is an great topic,and would love to hear from those who have trained it.I know Master Yang dose not recommend it.But I do notice that it mite be tought to those who reach the tenth leval.I know it hard if not next to impossable to do something he recommends not to do.It is,and has been a point of concern for me when it comes to iron palm training,after listening to Master yang feel so strongly about not training it.I have read veiwed and done some of winglam Iron palm.It seems very practical and safe and is exstremly injoyable.It is a very slow progression that takes about two years training of two or three sessions a day every day.There is very specific warm ups to to warm and bring chi to the hands and very specific way to massage the hands with iron palm jow afterwards.Is this the same type of irion palm training he is refering to,or is it differant.I did it for a short time only about 3 months,It takes the right life style and great dedication to train this way.what I learned from this training is that with this alone one can reach and understand the true meening of kung fu at the highest level.It is a very deep meditative and internal training.It takes time effort and perseverance.But is it safe?From reading Wing lams book one would beleave so.With out any body and hand conditioning a lot of teckniques will not make any sence and you will you be able to use them.With out conditioning the hand one can train for many years and never have an effective tecknique that will stop an enemy,a real enemy not one in sparring in class or a tournament.I have done exstensive makiwara training(4x4)with out padding along with striking and punching kendo armor with out gloves wile some one wearing it.I trained so I could fractor someones scull with my bare hands with one strike.My nuckles are hudge and ugly and would never recommend the way I trained to anyone, it was way to fast a progression and nothing was done for healing.I am 38 and so far no problems with my hands yet.My instuctor who trained the same way is 70 with no problems with his hands.And he with still strike kendo armor full force.I have met and trained with peaple who trained for many years who never hit anything and when they had to broke the hands or wrists.Even professional boxers will bust there hands if the strike some one with out wrapes and cloves.A martial artist has to condition there hands and body to some degrea,so what is the best and safest way?
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Postby scramasax57 » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:55 pm

i'd like to clarify some of my former statements. i do not think iron palm is a bad idea. i believe that, if done correctly, it could be safe. i'm not entirely familiar with the specific wing lam system; it appears to be more internal than i had assumed. i am all for body conditioning, as anyone at ymaa andover can attest to. i just question the necessity of conditioning to such an extreme degree when there are undeniable dangers, however rare. i personally would not recommend iron palm training to people who ask me about it. but i also do not discount the existence of a safe, dependable system of training it.
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Postby Inga » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:19 pm

ah DOM, there is conditioning and then there is trying to achieve extremes. i would assume most martial artists would undertake some form of body (including hands) conditioning in varying degrees. your goal of hoping to "fracture someone's skull with...bare hands with one strike" is, in my opinion, pretty extreme. i am not saying you shouldn't have this goal, but persumably you would not hope to be in many situations where you would need to use this. i certainly don't imagine having read your posts that you would WANT to do it. just to balance the equation, i condition on a basic level to gain strength, bond with my fellow students (because of the level of trust involved) and my goal is to spar without receiving countless bruises. i prefer actually making contact with other students, this is a) a faster way for me to learn and b) more fun. i get to use this benefit regularly for a reasonable amount of effort put in. the rigours of training these extreme techniques does not seem to me to be balanced by the genuine opportunity one may have to use it. still, we all have our goals..just remind me to stay on your good side DOM! :)
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Postby DOM » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:45 pm

scram there no reason to clarify your statments,this makes for a good thread.One that aims for the trueth.Is it as dangerous as what I have heard or is it a positive and excepted way to practice?I really do not know for sure I never achieved Iron palm.There is alot of negitive info out there besides what Master Yang says.This was and is a issue to me still.Some of the methodes I came across were much more exstream from what Master Lam teaches.In fact in Master Liang shou book qigung empowerment says to just wrap an iron shot bag with cloth and strike it as hard as you can,One hand at a time.After some time start on wraping the bag a little at a time.This is not much differant then the training I did on a makiwara.Inga I use to train that way years ago,I now longer do so.It is funny that you say after reading some of my posts that you would't think I would want to do that.Your right I do not.By training forms basic techniques and striking the makiwara and bogue with the mind set of distroying an enemy with one blow actualy made me more passive and unlikley to ever strike some one inless my life was threatened.The style I studied was some what exstrem for most pealple but is was also heavily influinced by Zen that balanced it out.But we were by far the most exstream,check out kokushikai Oyama's style.They trained to brake ordinary rocks on and anvil and thrust there fingers threw boards and watemellons ect.Brake patio blocks with their shins elbows and head and chop the tops off of bottles.I seen this at a Seido event Nakamura's style a dicipal of Oyama.I even witness one guy brake two base ball bats with his shin.This and the training I did mite be exstreme,but there are very exstrem peaple out there even in todays society.
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Postby Inga » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:48 pm

DOM, i think it's brilliant there are extreme people out there. i admire that people have the dedication and drive to achieve some extraordinary things. just thought i'd throw in some comment from us novices with 'ordinary' tendancies..it's a spectrum isn't it, the human form/temperment and the martial arts. as you say, this makes for good discussion because it covers many areas - conditioning, endurance, health and, in a way, morality. by the way, if you don't condition the way i do now, and you've said you've given up hitting the armor, how do you condition now? somewhere in the middle? your caution about the possibility of breaking my wrists has made me sit up and think.
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Postby qwackdragon » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:18 pm

Ive herd Dr Yang talk about this many times at seminars. It almost always comes up. I think the confusion is comming from the fact that there are many levels of iron palm training. Dr Yang says the first levels are not dangerous and can be practiced safley just as you would properly condition any other part of your body, but the higher levels is where the danger are because of the extreems. So i think everyone is right, from a certain point of view :wink:
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Postby scramasax57 » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:36 pm

that's basically what i was trying to say.
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Postby Hephaestus » Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:49 pm

The iron palm practiced by Wing Lam and other BSL students is the method of Gu, Ru Zhang(Ku Yu Cheong), who was the founder of BSL as it exists today.
KYC was famous not only for his iron skills and martial abilities, but as a healer. If his method of Iron Palm reduced the sensitivity of his hands or made them shake, it would have greatly impaired his medical skills. BSL Iron Palm is fairly internal in theory, in that the aim is not only to harden the hands through conditioning, but to pack them with Qi similar to internal Iron Body practices.
I believe I recall NorthernShaolin mentioning to me that his teacher (Wong Jack Man) told him that what is practiced by BSL students is only 1 of 3 possible levels of Iron Palm training. Whether these other two levels were practiced by KYC or not, I do not know. It is perfectly possible that KYC was able to perform that famous break pictured previously in this thread without practicing the "advanced" forms that would damage his hands. Long term effects in KYC himself were impossible to observe, as he died fairly young, executed.
Something to note is that KYC also practiced Yang style Taiji as taught to him by Li Jing Lin (also a master of Wudang Sword). Perhaps internal training and qigong balances out the harder Iron practice.
Many of Lam, Kwong Wing's students whom practice Iron Palm will attest that their method does not make one sterile, as several of them practiced for years before having children of their own. Also, one of the things the Chinese method of hand conditioning is most famous for is the lack of disfigurement of the hands which occurs in many Japanese and Korean methods, likely due to improper transmission of Qigong and jow recipes.
As with any martial practice, some toughening/roughening of the skin is to be expected as with hitting a sandbag, but deformed hands are a sure sign of either improper training or improper treatment.
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Postby DOM » Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:15 pm

Inga I realy do not condition my hands any more but still use a heavy bag with thin gloves or with out any gloves at all.I think this is all one needs to do.But it is very easy to break a wrist on a bag so be careful and take it slow.We always tought knuckle push ups before any one ever struck any think.I plan to do winglams methode in the near future to condition my palm and help heal the damage I caused to the rest of my hand .The way I conditioned my hands in the past was effective but is definatly not heathly.I will never teach my children that method thats for sure.I still like using the makiwara it is a great training tool.But it should be paded well.I do like what I have seen of wing lams method of iron palm.But this dose nothing for the fist.In liang shous book he shows how to develop iron fist.This sounds like a great method.If you train ymaa I beleave they do this.One handed knuckle push up position held for a few minutes at a time.I think knuckle push ups are still the best methode over all.Conditions the knuckles,steanthens the wrists arms shoulders,chest and torso.Then on to the heavy bag or some kind of dense striking target.I would bet that the white crane hard chigung set with hands closed would also be a good idea.I am sure there are others who have better and safer methodes than I.The methodes I used deformed my hands and mite cause arthrits later in life.
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Postby scramasax57 » Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:19 pm

we do use that method. it's one of my favorites also. a lot of people do it incorrectly though, which can lead to problems. it's important to remember to make a proper fist, tuck in the thumb, to squeeze your fist very hard the whole time, and to put most of the weight on the middle and index knuckles. if you don't clench the fist, the hand loses proper alignment and the whole goal of strengthening is compromised. also it apparently is tempting to shirt the weight from the two knuckles to the others, because the others spread the weight out more and don't hurt as much. however they're also weaker and should not be used for striking.

also, anyone using an older heavy bag (like mine) should be aware of settling; this is when the sand or whatever was used to filled the bag compacts from the force of gravity over time. this can cause certain regions of the bag to be extremely and unexpectedly hard. there's one spot on mine that way hard than the rest. i only hit that spot for 5 minutes tops, because it is almost completely solid.
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