Ground-Fighting / Submission-Wrestling in CMAs?

Discuss shaolin longfist, white crane or other styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

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Postby jbowman » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:45 am

Actually we should all be training or sleeping(depending on the time zone) instead of reading and responding to the idle chatter of online forums. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Ground Fighting, Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, and Y

Postby Dave C. » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:48 pm

von Harris wrote:(All apologies for inaccuracies and idiocies in this reply; I'm posting to this subject as a favor for a friend. )...


I just wanted to say that was a great post. Thanks for sharing your insights.

The rise of MMA/NHB has brought some good things to MA and some bad things. One of the bad is that many people now don't understand the purpose of TMA. Your post went a long way to clearing up some of that confusion.
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Postby lilman » Thu May 15, 2008 10:39 am

As far as ground fighting and submission wrestling, all Chinese martial arts have Punches, Kicks, Qinna, and Wrestling. They are meant to be fluid and open so if your on the ground, Qinna and wrestling can still apply. It depends on YOU if you train it or not. All Chinese martial arts should also train basic skills such as how to fall, rolling, and how to stand up. If not your screwed once the fight hits the ground. Believe it or not you can train all that in all martial arts including Taiji. But theoretically you should never hit the ground if you train Taiji correctly.

Secondly, if your training for SPORT only, you have to train yourself NOT to do certain things that can save your life. ie, cavity strikes, hitting to face and groin, certain wrestling, qinna, and strikes... The reason being, you can disqualify yourself or kill your opponent if not, so those moves MUST be deleted from your arsenal. Then you get sucker punched on the street, or fight more than one opponent, and thats that. MMA and TMA is GREAT for the ring, if you train for competition. Its GREAT for the streets if you train for the streets. But you must sacrifice one for the other to some extent.

What I learned in the U.S. Army is that the new fighting style they use, I think its jujitsu... Not 100% sure with the way they train now... But its mostly, well actually 95% ground fighting... Is some ground fighting is great... If you only have one opponent and the fight ends up on the ground... If there's 2 or more, or stay on your feet, and they have trained in some martial arts, your dead. So their basically training soldiers to DIE in hand to hand combat, just because UFC looks cool and they say 90% of fights end up on the ground... the moral is, it doesnt matter your style. It all depends on how your trained, what your trained on, and what your opponent is trained. You should train for EVERY situation, and not just look at "statistics" and what you think is cool. Look for what works.

Every fight is situational, and anyone can loose or win a fight anytime, even if its master against an amatuer. So just because you trained with Gracie, or Dr. Yang, doesnt make you superior to ANYBODY, even non-matial artists. For every Mountain there is a higher mountain, and heaven is higher than the even the tallest mountain. Even the greatest meet their match.
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Postby warfreakyanix » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:44 pm

Does a master in martial arts uses gloves in fighting?
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Postby John the Monkey mind » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:52 pm

Getting back to the first point when I started TMA I was also trained in take downs/throws regularly and take downs ALWAYS ended in a ground submission Chin Na move but with me kneeling (usually on my partner) and combined with a strike to exposed vital areas, the focus was very much keeping the ability to move . Sadly much of my more current lessons haven't included this and I feel its over looked.

Back to the more recent debate about usefulness in ground fighting for combat ect this debate is 2000 years old, the Greeks went on at grate length about it, basic conclusion judo style throws are good, learning to keep up your guard is good, don't end up on the ground yourself and don't rely on competition technique as when your fighting on a galley your spear will get stuck in the rigging lol (rules are not real world and there is no substitute for experience in action). Don't forget most to philosophers were champion wrestlers in their youth and almost all Greek men went to war at one time or other so they knew a lot more about this than we ever will.

My point is that in one form or other this debate has gone on practically for ever. :P

As above training intensity and all round competency and you need some ground game.

I really need a committed training partner as I can't train this stuff sufficiently alone. :(
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Postby yeniseri » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:07 pm

I concur with BaquaMonk!
At one time ne waza (judo/jiujitsu) was a mainstay of the art but it fell out of favour to the extent that judo involved the throws only and ignored ground technique. BJJ as taught by Count Maeda learned that way but kept it as part of his training regimen on his sojourn to Brazil, where it became the modus operandi of Gracie art.

Pertaining to both CMA and Japanese martial systems (if I recall correctly from one of my old teachers), the status of the individual noted how an art was positioned in society. In China, as we know, martial arts were considereda low art, a street art and as such the Confucionists, intellectuals, examintakers,etc did not dirty themselves with 'coarse' individuals by rolling in dirt! If someone was thrown, that in itself was knowledge of some aspect of the art and the competition stopped there. If someone applied qina (regardless of how you spell it!), that was an indication of some skill and those of that class went no further than that.

Shuaijiao, on the other hands, was a functional street art and part of the cultural sphere but again, soldiers and such developed skill based on theor job position.

Late 19th century started appreciating such arts based on their literacy level and it becae somewhat widespred to learn CMA as part of a cultural sphere as evidenced by Jung Wu association and the acquisition of a "middle class" Shanghai openness and the appeal of native culture.
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Postby kevin122344 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:46 pm

[quote="scramasax57"]The problem with TCMA styles and practicality is not the styles themselves, it's the people who train them...[/quote]

wow... you really hit the nail on the head in this post... i'm very glad i found this post!. if TCMA is going continue as an prominent martial art, it needs to have more applicable training methods.

i completely agree.. ground fighting is important.. but if you don't want to go to the ground or dont want to spend the time learning it.... at least train with a bjj guy to learn how they try and take you down. then you can apply your traditional stances to get out of bad situations against bjj folks or mma guys etc. it's extremelly important to understand how to counter mainstream people.. i mean thats how most chinese styles developed... by countering other chinese styles, right?

i'm glad Dr. Yang is trying to change this.
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:38 am

Styles that do well in MMA competitions are those that fight the way they train Boxers, kickboxers, grapplers. The rules favour grappling. Going to ground is not a good thing to do on the street. Unfortunately many people learning traditional martial arts never learn how to apply their arts, Tai Chi being a prime example. One thing that really gets my goat when you see people learn forms but when they come to spar use kickboxing.

Glad you found this discussion, Kevin hope it answers your questions.
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Postby silverfox » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:31 am

Hello,

I want to point out that YMAA does in fact practice Chin Na in Groundfighting. This was first rationalized in the early generations of YMAA under Paul Arsenault and Joseph Faulise in the YMAA produced book titled Chin Na in Groundfighting. This book was a great resource, but did not include many of Master Yang's Chin Na techniques. What the book did was show how Chin Na theory can be applied to Groundfighting.

I frequently teach Chin Na in Groundfighting seminars at the YMAA Boston Headquarters as this is slowly becoming a topic of interest again within the YMAA community. There is a possibility that YMAA publications will be considering my request to write a book and produce a DVD that incorporates Master Yang's Chin Na techniques in Groundfighting. All this is a possibilty of course and I am hopeful that it will materialize in the future so as to address the topic of how Kung Fu applies Chin Na on the ground.

There is no doubt in my mind that Chin Na on the ground existed due to the fact that the transmission of Kung Fu from China to Japan resulted in JuJitsu which heavily emphasized locks on the ground even prior to the Ne Waza revolution brought to light by Jigaro Kano within the realm of Judo.

Jigara Kano only recongnized these ground techniques due to the fact that at his prime and the period of Judo's recogniton as Japan's national martial art/sport Kano's school was challenged by a small unknown JuJitsu school called the Fusen Ryu style which emphasized Chin Na/submissions on the ground.

Jigaro Kano's Judo students lost 13 out of 16 matches to this Fusen Ryu school and not on points. The Fusen Ryu students submitted Kano's students by dragging them to the ground and applying Chin Na locks/chokes! Kano respected this school and allowed it to integrate the Ne Waza (ground techniques) into the Judo curriculum. Mitsuya Maeda A.K.A Count Koma was of this generation and passed the Ne Waza and Tachi Waza (throwing techniques) on to the Gracies and hence the birth/reconstruction and evolution of BJJ (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu).

This Fusen Ryu style evolved out of Chin Na in Groundfighting carried over from Chinese Kung Fu. There is a style of Kung Fu that does fight specifically on the ground named Dog Kung Fu, i.e. Góuquán, i.e Dishuquan a Kung Fu style from China. This is a southern style of Chinese boxing that specializes in takedowns and ground fighting.

Most Kung Fu styles have similar roots in regards to techniques and areas of expertise. Even though Shuai Jiao emphasizes throws on the battlefield, many Kung Fu styles developed aspects of grappling as this is an obvious area of martial arts that could not have been overlooked by all martial artists in 3,500 years of CMA development. Many styles had simply ignored it or refused to train it, yet many did continue to train it and pass it along as evidenced from the mention of the previous styles.

YMAA has always been progressive in understanding and interpreting the martial arts due to the scientific and open minded thought patterns of our great mentor Master Yang Jwing-Ming. Chin Na in groundfighting is a topic that we have addressed for many years and it is my personal goal to further this area of training within YMAA and help it to progress forward as a funtional part of the curriculum eventually.

Keep an eye out for these Chin Na Ground Control seminars on the YMAA Boston website from time to time and remember to research, analyze, share, and keep an open mind so we as a martial arts community can work together in harmony and peace which is the highest level of human nature. :)
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:19 pm

Hi Scott, have ever used chi sau in ground fighting?
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Postby silverfox » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:13 am

I use chi sau all the time in wrestling and BJJ! Trapping for ground and pound is essential and chi sau works well in the clinch as well if applied in a logical manner.
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

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www.ymaakungfu.com
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Postby HumbleSmith » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:23 am

lilman wrote:What I learned in the U.S. Army is that the new fighting style they use, I think its jujitsu... Not 100% sure with the way they train now... But its mostly, well actually 95% ground fighting... Is some ground fighting is great... If you only have one opponent and the fight ends up on the ground... If there's 2 or more, or stay on your feet, and they have trained in some martial arts, your dead. So their basically training soldiers to DIE in hand to hand combat, just because UFC looks cool and they say 90% of fights end up on the ground... the moral is, it doesnt matter your style. It all depends on how your trained, what your trained on, and what your opponent is trained. You should train for EVERY situation, and not just look at "statistics" and what you think is cool. Look for what works. [/i]



I felt I should respond to this. It seems to me their logic would be that on the ground is the most likely place for a soldier not to be able to access the string of available weapons the government hangs on him. Thus that's the most likely situation for hand to hand fighting to occur. They don't guess, they don't dream stuff up, they take hard data and they react to that data as best they can.
This is another case of war being different than normal hand to hand encounters.
The Army is not stupid but they don't have 10 years to wait for a soldier to be deadly up, down or upside down. They have a few months of basic training, then potentially combat immediately after. They give him or her what they have time and money to give him or her and they agonize over everything they put in or leave out. Wouldn't do much good to have a black belt soldier who couldn't fire a Dragon or use a radio...
The SOLDIER has 10 years though, and on the advice of my military family I studied a number of martial arts through my youth and up to enlistment(which was long ago in the mists of time). Today I practice Tai Chi(no YMAA schools here in Michigan though, Aargh) as best I can with the body I have left!
You will find that many soldiers *cough*Smart ones*Cough*, train and study martial arts on their own, along with firearms use and other useful disciplines.

EDIT: Ah, I'm sorry for resurrecting this thread! I just now noticed the dates, my apologies!

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Postby Josh Young » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:29 am

The manual for fighting in the Army is worth looking at.

It is written by Matt Larsen and is based on the modified Judo that is called Ju-jitsu in the Americas. It is not considered a highly lethal fighting method and it is said that the person who wins the fight is the person whose friends show up with guns first.

However because it is submission oriented and non-lethal it can be more easily trained in and the Army has made training in it compulsory, where previously there was no compulsory martial art training in the US army.

The Army has soldiers train and compete in this martial art in a systematic manner and it does boost confidence. However it is modified from the original judo content Maeda drew from to create the Gracie methods in that the takedowns are not used in a lethal manner, the truth is that takedowns were not originally designed to make the fight go to the ground but instead battered the opponent using the ground. If UFC took place on a concrete floor this would be much more clear. When used properly there is no submission involved, the person who has been slammed against the ground is often severely injured. However competition rules prevent this in sportfighting.
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