Dying Systems

Discuss shaolin longfist, white crane or other styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

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Re: Dying Systems

Postby yeniseri » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:21 pm

MethodMike wrote:Hey everybody,

I'm a newbie, so you may have covered this one. Could an advanced practictioner or group of practictioners "resurrect" a dead or dying system? I assume they would start with the "DNA" like theory, keywords, training methods, etc..., but would it be considered "traditional" or "modern"? Would it be necessary? Whatcha' think???



Yes! It happens more than one may think.
During the Cultural Revolution many arts were "rediscovered" so that there would be a renaissance in "traditional" CMA as part of the culture.
Is it traditional? I do not have an answer!
My only strategy is to have 10 people who studied with 1 main "traditional" teacher and have them do a form of that particular and see why they are all different and why. STuff happens, I know.

Better yet have 10 traditional teachers of the same style do the same thing and go from there!
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Postby yat_chum » Thu May 28, 2009 5:13 pm

yijing zhigang

use stillness to overcome movement
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Postby yat_chum » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:46 am

One of Lowsi's favourite techniques was Southern Snake Kung Fu. It is one of the most complex systems to learn and one of the most deadly. Drawing on the influence of the viper, cobra and the python, it makes stabbing hand motions to the face, throat and genitals.
'The viper inflicts heavy psychological damage by drawing lots of blood,' Lowsi told me. 'It's trademark is the tongue strike.' He positioned two of my fingers. 'Aim at main arteries and veins,' he said, demonstrating the stabbing technique in the air. Next he took my hand and opened it up , curling my thumb underneath. 'This position keeps dynamic tension, characteristic of the cobra.' he said. 'The cobra concentrates it strikes on nerves an pressure points.' Lowsi went on to explain the way of the python, with its pinpoint strikes and grabbing techniques. 'The snake is renowned for its speed and tenacity,' he warned. 'Once the reptile strikes, it hangs on and makes certain that its opponent will die.'
'A "dim mak" technique then?' I questioned.
'Correct Ch'i is essential to the snake system,' Lowsi continued. "it must be harnessed it your body in order to mimic a snake in its coiling and undulating motions. Only through Ch'i can the proper flow be achieved to allow its technique to work.'


Extracted from "Taming the Tiger: From the Depths of Hell to the Heights of Glory" by Tony Anthony
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Postby Josh Young » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:13 pm

There are two types of snake styles that I know of.
One is a poisonous snake, one is a large constrictor.

The large constrictors spin, wrap and hit with their tail, they tend to use locking and trapping methods.

The poison snakes target weak spots with quick precise strikes, they may be very fast and retreat fast or hang on to vital areas causing increased damage with time.

Where the animal styles of India, which are found in Indian martial arts that are very old (2000+ years) were created there were reticulated pythons, they have been called the King of Serpents and this has frequently been translated as dragon.

When the Indian martial traditions influenced other traditions there ceased to be two snake styles, one was snake and the other was dragon, at least in translation.

In many cases the areas that the Indian arts influenced had no giant serpents, so the idea of such a thing was considered mythological.

You can learn a great deal from the animals themselves.
You can never revive a dead art fully, but you can do it justice by preserving the vital spirit of the art. Do your best.
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Postby John the Monkey mind » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:55 am

Back on reproducing dead styles. Some people I met in London have done a fantastic job with 15th century Euro sword fighting (complete system, grappling, wrestling, kicking and throws not like modern fencing) from manuscripts with illustration, it was traditional MA as good as Asian I have seen. They were all top martial artists when they started though so had a good start. I have copy's of some manuscripts and they are very complete with illustrations and descriptions/explanations.

Also some guys recreated the Tibetan Lions Roar style. I know someone who got a black belt in it and it really works, sparing with him is hard. Sadly they didn't do internal as not believers in Chi. Well researched though, based on Tibetan White Crane and a few other things backed up with manuscripts ect.

Don't know what I would want to reproduce. :?
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Postby yat_chum » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:54 pm

Hung Kuen - Seh Ying Kuen (Snake Fist)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_h1QtvBPRo
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Postby yat_chum » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:18 am

Abir (Israeli martial art) Tribe of Dan twin snake arm form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aMOeiTRJvY
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Postby yat_chum » Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:48 am

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Postby EightElbows » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:36 pm

I wanted to bring this young lady’s performance to your attention. She is very skilled and one of her favorite forms is an advanced form in the Lohan Kuen system.

It is a snake form. The most advanced I have seen.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/vid ... =515040890
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Postby yat_chum » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:43 pm

Hasayfu Hung Kuen - Snake Sample
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vb0GSRsp20
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:28 am

Yiu Choi (AKA Snake style) Wing Chun
Yiu Choi Snake Hands San Sik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_H_8l830yA

Yiu Choi Snake Dummy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eao5mDDMI-U
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Postby yat_chum » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:23 pm

Vietnamese Kung Fu Snake Form
http://youtu.be/iqOIcNNGRp4
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Postby yat_chum » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:04 pm

Choy Li Fut - Snake Form - Grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong
http://youtu.be/aeVT0nISs20
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Re: Dying Systems

Postby hungfei » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:07 pm

The problem with the snake style is this...... there was a full snake style art. It broke apart and became 4 different pai branches. The core of snake boxing is mainly chin na and Shuai Chao. The striking portions of the art are based on precision striking and force is never met in kind. Hand strikes are made almost exclusively in a yin/yang configuration. Over time practitioners did what everyone else does, they specialized in methods and backed away from other methods. Kicking was low and fast and learned after chin name and shuai chao techniques and methods. The original snake boxing did not have footwork in forms and minimal footwork with application as it was unimportant to the power generation methods used. Simple natural "western boxing" like footwork was used. Very similar to what we see in Bak Mei today. Later in snake development monkey footwork was adopted into the systems. This is why snake moved from a tall fast evasive step method to a low fast hand method. The methods moved away from locks, controls, and throws to almost an exclusive striking method. Cavity striking and Dim mak(point pressing) methods were used to damage internals and tear apart joints. Yi type striking to dim yuet points and soft targets using hay say points to finish the opponent. Contrary to popular belief dim mak does not mean death touch. You are using nerves, veins, and arteries to inflict pain and damage, it is not magic. Power in snake systems comes from the dan tien very similar in what we see in tai chi methods. It is an internal art after all. Remember.... similar is not the same. The original snake methods are gone. Southern Snake boxing is the closest you are ever going to see in the modern age. I hope this helps answer some of the questions.
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Re: Dying Systems

Postby Dvivid » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:05 am

Great information, thank you.

The skill of “Pressing Cavity” (Dian Xue ) or “Pressing Primary Qi Channel” (Dian Mai/Dim Mak ) requires detailed understanding of the body’s Qi circulatory system, and which points are vital at which time of day, for these techniques to be effective. Dim Mak is controversial, and is considered mythical in modern times. Many people do not believe it to be possible, and in fact they do not believe that Qi or the body’s energetic circulatory system even exists. However, in traditional Chinese martial arts society, it is well known and understood. In addition, during World War 2, the Japanese performed extensive studies on the Qi circulatory system, using Dim Mak techniques on captured Chinese civilians from the Manchou territory (Northeast of China). By carefully recording the data resulting from these "experiments", torturing and killing many people in the process, they verified the accuracy of their knowledge of the body’s energetic circulatory system and the effectiveness of the Dim Mak techniques. This information has been published in other countries, and was made available for publication in America, but upon reading the details after translation into English by YMAA, it was decided to be unethical and dangerous to publish the information.

Read more about point striking (also a dying art):
http://ymaa.com/articles/generating-jin
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Re: Dying Systems

Postby joeblast » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:09 pm

there's quite a few ways to employ the same methods in healing capacities or otherwise. once years ago one of my teachers did some sort of point strike combination and ended with a zip down the centerline, to basically test the openness of the central channel I presume...heh, well, mine wasnt open enough, it was stopped in the central channel and having to find a path, made its way through the jingluo, then all of a sudden I broke out into a huge sweat :lol:

and of course he said the dim mak techniques he knew, but refused to teach because of the danger. dian mai...now there would be some good knowledge to employ in a positive manner :)
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: Dying Systems

Postby Dvivid » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:20 pm

Yes, of course, it can be used for acupressure and healing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_AHb2SJ ... _A&index=5
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Re: Dying Systems

Postby joeblast » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:34 pm

that's a great DVD ;) the event I was talking about was almost martial in its...quickness and surprise - I had no idea what was coming :lol: it was almost like in a movie when half a dozen hits land in a half a second, everything got really quiet, then BOOM sweat :lol:
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:50 am

yijing zhigang

use stillness to overcome movement
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:41 am

WUDANG SNAKE STYLE FORM with Tseng, Yun Xiang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVIhp_8EWIE
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