Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

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Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby Dvivid » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:36 am

Hello,

Any Shaolin history experts in here?

I believe this Jin Gang Quan form is the missing link between Shaolin kung fu and Taijiquan (and earlier cultures).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSRzgdC5bfk

It seems obvious that it is the root of Chen taiji, and the origin of the "vajra" movements. (Of course, it is possible and likely that these movements pre-date Shaolin, but I mean "origin" only as it pertains to Chinese martial arts.)

This form is said to have been developed around 550AD, just after the period of Da Mo teaching at Shaolin. Very beautiful form.

I have posted about vajra before, but the short version is: vajra is a sanscrit word from Buddhist and even pre-Hindu times. It refers to both the concepts of 'thunderbolt' and 'diamond'. 'Thunderbolt' as in the sudden flash of enlightenment in Buddhism, and even in Aryan culture (ie Indra/Thor). And 'Diamond' as in the constant and intense clear view of ultimate reality, without concepts or rational thinking; pure being.

I think Daoism wanted a national style, that was not imported (especially in periods where Buddhism was outlawed), and therefore taijiquan developed from this root.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:15 pm

That assumes you believe that Yang taiji comes from chen.

Yes, i am being difficult...
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby yeniseri » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:32 am

I will agree that there are influences and Chen records did say the synthesis of Chen family art plus Shaolin borrowings packaged in a Daoist frame (though having Buddhist influences) with Li/Chen philosophical re-engineering did bring the art to what we know today!

Yang reversed engineeded Chen to form Yang and so on based on his previous exposure. Same concept in Wu2, Wu3 and Sun style! Evolution!
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:27 pm

ok, i didnt mean that chen had no influence on Yang! As far as i can tell, yang went to chen village so it is a moot point on that (read GIVEN). However, chen seems to rely on a totally different idea than Yang (albeit, my experience is rather limited with chen), so we ask, where?

It would be something like this: Guy goes to learn Aikido from Ueshiba. Aikido is basically a grappling art. Yet, somehow, Guy (who later becomes the ULTIMATE FIGHTING CHAMPION OF THE UNIVERSE - to use modern silliness) is now a master of a STRIKING art.. hmm. Where and how did this come about? In modern world, he would probably be discredited and bad mouthed in forums .. who knows. But results dont lie.

What do i mean? Like i said, my chen is limited, but as I understand it, chen was designed for battle warfare, meeting soldiers with armor and such. The result is the applications revolve around more of a close quarter combat (throws etc). Yang style, while could be, and has that aspect, it relies on striking mechanics.

Like i said, chen had some influence, but to say Yang came from Chen.. i dont buy it.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby Josh Young » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:22 pm

wpgtaiji wrote: chen seems to rely on a totally different idea than Yang

Chen contains all of the core 8 energies that Yang does.
It is worth looking into further, these energies are found in an art associated with Shaolin in a loose sense.
The art is called Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.
It is said by some that Chen Wang-Ting employed Tai Tzu Chang Chuan to amalgamate Chen style. The 8 energies are common to Chen, Tai Tzu, and Yang style.
Yang style is taught as (Shi San Shi) 13 postures, this is of course the 8 energies with 5 direction/movements.

Aikido has a lot of maiming and striking, not that it matters, but it is an extremely unfriendly and deadly art, which has a lot to do with why Morihei Ueshiba taught what he did, how he did. It is a good topic to explore further but is not really related to this topic, other than the idea that to study X and learn Y is indeed odd.

Chen was made as a family art, not for the battlefield, Chen village has a very interesting history. The Chens owned a pharmacy and were the main landlords in a very poor farming village, their martial art was not about armor or battlefields but was kind of what we would call "street" today. It has many weapons, though no throwing ones I know of. It is extremely lethal and dangerous as a martial art but was secret for a very long time. Yang Luchan pretty much exposed it to the world.

There is a subtle fact that undermines a lot of claims about this type of thing. Standardized forms are largely non-traditional, Cheng Fu didn't change a standard form, there was no standard form before him. He standardized a very loose and personalized form practice relating to the 13 postures. Before him there was no Yang form method that was standard, every single branch coming from students of Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou, Yang JianHou, Yang Shaohou etc: had a different form to some degree or another, merely containing common elements. Two different students of Jian-hou could have very different forms.

But this relies on one on one teaching, old school teaching, not teaching groups. Cheng-fu knew you can't teach groups without a standard form, and like reading you have to cater to the lowest common denominator, or skill level. So he made a standard form and revised it during his life.

Anyway, Yang seems to have come from Chen, but Chen is far more violent in so many ways. Yang is far more subtle, more gentle. Keep in mind I know the Erle Montaigue system is more violent than Yang style, but perhaps less so than Chen. I will note that to me at least the EM system is not taiji, but has some in it. It is Erles and is unique, to practice and understand it does not mean one knows Yang style by any means. It means one knows Erles style/system.

Perhaps one day the question will be if Erles style can be explained as coming from Yang style?
Hell no.

Maybe it is like that for Luchan and Chen... maybe not.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby yeniseri » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:07 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:ok, i didnt mean that chen had no influence on Yang! As far as i can tell, yang went to chen village so it is a moot point on that (read GIVEN). However, chen seems to rely on a totally different idea than Yang (albeit, my experience is rather limited with chen), so we ask, where?

It would be something like this: Guy goes to learn Aikido from Ueshiba. Aikido is basically a grappling art. Yet, somehow, Guy (who later becomes the ULTIMATE FIGHTING CHAMPION OF THE UNIVERSE - to use modern silliness) is now a master of a STRIKING art.. hmm. Where and how did this come about? In modern world, he would probably be discredited and bad mouthed in forums .. who knows. But results dont lie.

What do i mean? Like i said, my chen is limited, but as I understand it, chen was designed for battle warfare, meeting soldiers with armor and such. The result is the applications revolve around more of a close quarter combat (throws etc). Yang style, while could be, and has that aspect, it relies on striking mechanics.

Like i said, chen had some influence, but to say Yang came from Chen.. i dont buy it.


People teach differently, people learn differently and they do pick up certain things based on previous exposure, experience and inclination. Historical (hence objectively), it was Yang Luchan who studied/learned from Chen i.e. he went to Chenjiagou to learn their family art. We can only speculate on why Yang changed the art to reflect his understanding but that is how it happened. Having done Yang style, I am at odds with it being a striking art because I never learnt it that way but it does not preclude someone who is excellent at striking, in one way or another, to incorporate it into his Yang style training. People use what is usefeul and discard what they deem unimportant.

Are you familiar with CQB? You first have to strike, setup (keeping in mind the battlefield is spears, sword, or similar weapon) so one will never drop weapon to throw someone. CQB (no weapon) allows for acquisition of a weapon but it does not mean one goes weaponless onto a battlefield, hitting and throwing people! It just not real!

The Korean houseboy of Sokaku Takeda (Daitoryu?) founded Hapkido so it would make sense that as a 'human dummy' thinking, perceiving, training, etc would provide the background for similar arts undergoing changes would be understood differently though sharing like concepts.
My terms are relative so please do not accept them as being absolute!
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby Dvivid » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:22 pm

Yang taijiquan is not gentle. Most of the movements contain an application which is a deadly cavity strike.

And, I agree with wpg that it doesn't seem that Yang Tai Chi is born of Chen style. Yang style bears a lot more similarity to earlier kung fu styles, and many of these older forms (which are not included in Chen tai chi) remain unchanged.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:54 pm

Dvivid wrote:Yang taijiquan is not gentle. Most of the movements contain an application which is a deadly cavity strike.

They do not contain however singular applications and one can also say most of the moves contain gentle applications as well as deadly ones. It can be played quite gently, or totally lethally.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby yeniseri » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:21 pm

Dvivid wrote:Yang taijiquan is not gentle. Most of the movements contain an application which is a deadly cavity strike.

And, I agree with wpg that it doesn't seem that Yang Tai Chi is born of Chen style. Yang style bears a lot more similarity to earlier kung fu styles, and many of these older forms (which are not included in Chen tai chi) remain unchanged.


I must live in an alternate universe! What you describe is an exception and not the rule since I have come across few people who are 'good' at Yang style in an adroit manner of application and behavioural orientation and expectation.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:42 pm

yeniseri wrote:
I must live in an alternate universe! What you describe is an exception and not the rule since I have come across few people who are 'good' at Yang style in an adroit manner of application and behavioural orientation and expectation.


mate, there is no alt universe! 90% of what is called tai chi is rubbish, not any more physical than a walk, and not more martial than a game of chess... opps. bad analogy, as chess is all about beating someone!

People that tell you you can be "gentle" dealing with a hostile situation where the person really wants to hurt you is lying to you and should be killed... well, at least punched in the head, then taken to jail! LOl Dont listen to the hippie BS nor the government propaganda that taiji is soft! Luchan, as I struggle to remember (long long night.. and longer day), had 3 top students who each mastered one part (of 3). Neutralization, hard, and repelling (Tai chi Touchstones, xii). It seems that the people liked neutralize (but grossly misunderstand it) and forgot the other 2 parts.

Therefore, when you listen to someone talk about the "8 energies" or 'push" or "soft", they are only talking about a small part of the whole. In this case, give them only 1/3rd the attention they deserve (less, and you will be happier). If you remember, there NO pushes in taiji, and go from there, the whole thing will start to make sense to you...maybe.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby Dvivid » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:27 pm

It is true that nowadays very few people are interested in the martial art side of taiji, and you would not know that Yang style is a fighting art from most performances.

Of course it is fine to practice any taiji style gently for your health.

But the point is that, based on its original design (not the modern version) 1. yes, Yang taiji is an internal martial art so the body is as soft as possible, but 2. each strike is to an acupuncture cavity, with the intention of severely injuring someone.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby Josh Young » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:57 am

wpgtaiji wrote:People that tell you you can be "gentle" dealing with a hostile situation where the person really wants to hurt you is lying to you and should be killed... well, at least punched in the head, then taken to jail!

If you remember, there NO pushes in taiji...

Pushes in taiji are well documented and well known from most styles.

And yes, you can be gentle with people trying to hurt you, and people suggesting that are actually wiser than those who go around suggesting punching people in the head.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:39 am

Josh Young wrote:Pushes in taiji are well documented and well known from most styles.

And yes, you can be gentle with people trying to hurt you, and people suggesting that are actually wiser than those who go around suggesting punching people in the head.


Really? Can you prove it? Because I dont believe you. What I suggest for your "proof", go out to the meanest bar in your locale and pick a fight with the nastiest dude you can find. Try to deal with him "softly" with pushes, as you defend yourself. Oh, and video tape it for the record. The reason I suggest this is, you can of course, deal with someone who is way below your "skill" level AND who doesnt really want to hurt you with pushes. But, get a dude who knows what he is doing, and really wants to hurt you, then see how good your pushes are. Remember, your statement is false and incorrect on many levels, but is quite accurate with the modern belief of 99% of taiji people. That is why taiji people, over all, are not considered by anyone outside of taiji as serious or real self defence or fighting today.

Now, that said, YES, you must be gentle with everyone (because you just never know who or what you are talking too). But that is to a point. Once physical stuff starts, following your logic is a one way trip to the hospital or worse.

Josh, it seems your "block" isnt working. You may want to get that fixed.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby Josh Young » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:41 am

Where I am from I am good friends with the meanest guys in the bar.
The violent ones, bikers. They do hurt some people, and even they use pushing techniques among others, in fights. They get arrested for fighting all the time actually and used to work for a gang when they were younger, literally paid to hurt and intimidate people.

I wouldn't want to fight them, but they totally respect my martial art and skill. They will also tell you that retaliation and escalation are serious issues and that kungfu doesn't stop bullets. Evidently they had a skilled martial artist coworker who was shot in revenge for beating people in fights. Living that life and acting that way is not something I condone or espouse, suggesting people punch others or start fights seems to me unwise and indicative of poor charachter.

Many records of fights involving the old Yangs have them pushing opponents. Displacement is also used in Chen style.

The best part about pushing, and you may not realize this yet, is that a tiny push pretty much gives you a free hit almost anywhere. Vary few things make a person as vulnerable as being pushed and taiji is loaded with ways to push a person and take advantage of what that has to offer. It is wonderful to use it when you know how to use it, but dangerous and the launching energy method training is part of what made some of the older styles of training more dangerous.

Of course if you train in real taiji you have been pushed a lot and can neutralize and recover from a push far faster than the average person. And learning to push in certain ways can teach about penetrating energy in several of the 8 energies, like "pluck" and "rollback"

Block works fine, it gives me discretion.
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby yeniseri » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:06 am

Josh Young wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:People that tell you you can be "gentle" dealing with a hostile situation where the person really wants to hurt you is lying to you and should be killed... well, at least punched in the head, then taken to jail!

If you remember, there NO pushes in taiji...

Pushes in taiji are well documented and well known from most styles.

And yes, you can be gentle with people trying to hurt you, and people suggesting that are actually wiser than those who go around suggesting punching people in the head.


Yes and no! Tuishou is training and modified application in reaching a martial goal. At least, the 'sensing' part in applying the appropriate response.
I have rarely seen Yang style tuishou to the extent that I have seen Wu and Chen displayed.

Sample of Wu style tuishou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McWezZzEODw

Chen tuishou (Wang Xian)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaK4aK26Tv8

I am talking methodology and insight. I have rarely seen Yang style of this era doing this level of training or instruction
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Re: Shaolin kung fu --> the root of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:41 pm

Josh Young wrote: Living that life and acting that way is not something I condone or espouse, suggesting people punch others or start fights seems to me unwise and indicative of poor charachter.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasnt suggesting to actually do it! I was meaning to get it on film as PROOF that pushes work in an environment outside of a schoo to back up your claims. Since you have some measure of intellingence, it seems that video will not be forthcoming.

As to character, let's not go there. One can take words on a forum post so many ways it isnt funny. To one it may be "poor character". To another, "lunacy". Still, to another, "perfect manners" (I am NOT refering to this thread at all, just in a general way).

I am not sure about you any more... you take things literally. Almost as if you have no understanding of human interaction. Then again, maybe its me.. yes.. that's it. ITs me! :( I cannot get along with posts on an internet forum!! OH how the world is over....
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