what do you make of this?

by **Josh Young** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:44 pm

Is this even a taiji jin?
what kind of jin is it, or is it fake or made up or external?
Is it weak?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sibKGoMTzbY

by **yat_chum** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:05 am

"When I wear a shirt this short energy motion is very easy to miss."
:lol:

Genius, I might have to use that.
Have you seen some of his other clips?

by **yat_chum** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:40 am

The clip does remind me of something I've seen before. While I think about it. Here is some food for thought.

The Tai Chi Punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KAT2NQ9ynk

“From the soles, to the waist, the back, the shoulders where the vibrating takes place and transmitting to the elbows, the wrists and then the fingers.”
Taizu (Grand Ancestor) jin methods

Wuzuquan (Ngo Cho Kun or Five Ancestors Fist) Khay Sip Kun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV-YL61NENc

by **Josh Young** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:23 am

Neat links.

I have seen the other videos of the same youtube user. The user(jayredthorn) has a video of him cutting weeds with sword fingers mudra. He seems odd though, doesn't look or act much like most martial artists.

The twitch thing seems to work in reverse, you accept a momentum and then as you draw it in the shake redirects in along a very small fulcrum.

those other links are more interesting to me than the first one.
The first just shows a jin pattern of a specific shake technique, it can be used to power many movements.

by **yat_chum** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:16 pm

Zhong He Quan, Shaking Crane fist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzvFka-X_N4

"Ten shaking, nine are false. True shaking, even an army of one thousand men could not impede."

by **desa'84** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:32 am

I can't understand the hands movements at 0:33 and from 0:37, I have seen them in no Master Yang's sequences.
Could you explain me?

by **yat_chum** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:16 am

This is an explanation I found in the comments on the wuzuquan clip.

dantankun said

the vibration or "fa gin" can develop and is concentrated on strengthening the internal organs in combat it is in relation to the one inch strike concept. The ability to utilise short range effectively not only for striking but in defense such as preventing from getting wrap up.

by **Dvivid** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:32 am

"Ten shaking, nine are false. True shaking, even an army of one thousand men could not impede."

I love this quote. The fact is, Fa Jing is difficult. Even if you understand the theory, and train often, it is difficult to be properly relaxed, present, concentrated, focused, etc to get the correct response in the moment.

Have you heard a story of a grandmother lifting a 5,000 lb car off of a child after an accident, in a panic? THAT is a very high spirit (morale) - Yi.

The Yi leads the Qi.

http://www.ymaa.com/articles/generating-jin

by **Josh Young** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:15 pm

I am not even sure what I posted a link to counts as Fa-jin.
It is most likely false shaking, an example of the 9 out of 10.

I wish I knew how to tell.

I like Dr. Yangs articles on this topic very much. As well as his chapters in his Taiji and White Crane books that address the topic of "power" or jin.

by **Josh Young** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:46 pm

another video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3TLQ-cKZmo
This shaking must be fake, it looks so odd. Using the Psoas to shake the spine? That seems strange.

by **yat_chum** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:53 pm

Response to Luk's Fa-jing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaFzEzKcfbs
Chen Xiaowang - fajin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

by **Yatish Parmar** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:51 am

(Refering to another video by the creator in your original post above)

excuse my ignorance but isn't the psoas for bending the trunk? therefore how can the psoas be used to shake from side to side? I am not sure about this guys fa jin.

btw I was watching your links above and followed them on to this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVIT9EGW ... re=related

Master Yang is fidgeting in the background!

by **Josh Young** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:48 am

The Psoas does a lot more than bend the trunk!

It connects to hip flexors and so can be used to shake the hips and spine on top of the legs. You see if you set the legs with a stance then the same muscles that would raise the legs can move the body.

I am aware that the person in the video actually did not know what was shaking their body and then went to 2 different people who were versed in anatomy and then had then identify what was causing the shaking and is was the Psoas.

I don't think I posted a link to any fa-jing, just a type of jing.

by **Josh Young** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:52 am

Chen style fa-jing is very unique. It is more like shaolin than taiji.
I am not impressed with it, I know skilled Chen teachers and they are good but not skilled the way a good Taiji player is. They( chen) lack the softness and use too much li, so build up tremendous external strength for their art. They say they are internal but feeling them (push hands) shows their energy to be very external.

by **Josh Young** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:40 pm

http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpac ... p?id=53057
An article about the Psoas...

the psoas major (PM)...
The primary force of the PM on the lumbar spine is axial compression, which creates segmental stiffness and thereby resists shear forces. Most of this activity comes from the anterior fasciculii....

Seems to me that the muscle is a major gateway of any kinetic force using the whole body and issuing from the center. And as far as it's attachment and shape goes... where is the Dan Tien? What vertebrae are in the region? Where is the Psoas? What vertebra are in the region?
Both the dan tien and the lower dan tien occupy a region surrounded by the Psoas muscle.
also

The role of the psoas and iliacus muscles for stability and movement of the lumbar spine, pelvis and hip
Psoas was found to be selectively involved in sitting with a straight back and in contralateral loading situations requiring stabilization of the spine in the frontal plane.

That one bascially says that the Psoas deals with major spinal forces/loads that are of a left/right dichotomy from a forward direction. That is essentially what striking entails. Unless I am mistaken.

The previous quotes said the same thing in terms of axial compression and shear forces. The Psoas is a major muscle in walking and running forces, these kinetic forces are very strong. The Psoas is the connection of the spine to the legs through the hips through which major forces run. It is at the center of the body and if any degree of power involves leg, hip and spine then it is involved. It is also poorly understood in terms of public information.

by **joeblast** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:20 am

the psoas is hugely important! there's of course two sides to it, and by virtue of that there is definite left/right and twisting that results from the contraction of the muscle - so its a huge component for fa jin. many of my internal manipulations for correcting back issues are mostly motions of the psoas, massaging the anterior aspect of the spine. the psoas is actually THE reason that full lotus "shuts off the back alarm" for me because of the particular stretch it induces.

by **Yatish Parmar** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:52 am

the frontal plane is the coronal plane

http://www.crossfitsquamish.ca/resource ... _plane.jpg

The psoas is used used as a stabiliser and to bend the body forward.

I agree that the psoas connects the spine to the legs; core training done properly strengthens the psoas significantly. Likewise it can be used to add a great deal of power to kicks.

What the Psoas does not do is move the hips from side to side as in this video by the original youtube user: (I think this is the video, youtube seems to have stopped working.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3TLQ-cK ... re=channel

by **Josh Young** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:47 pm

In that video the psoas does not shake the hips, it shakes the spine and everything attached to it shakes consequently. To the untrained eye the motion is not seen.

As I learned: the Psoas is poorly understood as is demonstrated by the claim that the psoas cannot shake the spine. But if it deals with axial shear stress in walking then it can be used to shake the spine.

by **Josh Young** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:56 pm

Yatish Parmar wrote:the frontal plane is the coronal plane

What the Psoas does not do is move the hips from side to side as in this video by the original youtube user

I wonder, what muscles do you think is causing the motion in the video?

by **Josh Young** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:41 am

My theory is that there is no shaking left and right going on, it only looks that way. Instead there is short rotation, the spine twists slightly left and right rapidly, the result is a shaking that looks like the hips are being moved side to side. One can do this with the hand as well, just rotate the wrist along its long axis in short pulses of clockwise and counterclockwise. Keep the hand loose and there you go, the hand appears to shake left and right when what is happening is the wrist is rotating in a shaking manner. This is the same as the psoas/spine thing in the youtube video I linked to.

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