Mixing as a beginner?

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Mixing as a beginner?

Postby caesar » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:33 am

Hello there.

I would like to hear opinions about mixing different "inner" chinese arts. I train Yang Tai Chi, but I find Bagua and Xingyi very interesting. I only wonder that would it be a plus or a minus to study for example Bagua while I find myself quite a beginner in Tai Chi still, have learned only 1/3 of the long form yet.

I usually tend to think that training similar (especially inner) arts at the same time could explain each other. Then again, especially when talking about Tai Chi, I've heard many times how people tell not to mix, that it could only confuse, leading to not understanding any of the arts. Some teachers say that coming from one Tai Chi style to another might already be a very confusing and difficult place for a practioner, that some of the main principles might differ so much.

But how about those who are masters in Tai Chi and Bagua? Is it usually then so that they have first mastered one art and then started figuring out the other?
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby yeniseri » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:09 am

caesar wrote:I would like to hear opinions about mixing different "inner" chinese arts. I train Yang Tai Chi, but I find Bagua and Xingyi very interesting. I only wonder that would it be a plus or a minus to study for example Bagua while I find myself quite a beginner in Tai Chi still, have learned only 1/3 of the long form yet.

I usually tend to think that training similar (especially inner) arts at the same time could explain each other. Then again, especially when talking about Tai Chi, I've heard many times how people tell not to mix, that it could only confuse, leading to not understanding any of the arts. Some teachers say that coming from one Tai Chi style to another might already be a very confusing and difficult place for a practioner, that some of the main principles might differ so much.

But how about those who are masters in Tai Chi and Bagua? Is it usually then so that they have first mastered one art and then started figuring out the other?


What you described has nothing to do with a specific system. Learning a taijiqan form or a baquazhang/quan form is just performance with some type of 'new age' health regimen.
If you can add additional information and you are actually learning other than form then that is excellent. Here are some criteria:
1. zhanzhuang
2. Taijizhuang
3. SIngle tuishou
4. 2 hand tuishou
4. Individual posture training
5. Repeated posture training, etc
6. Qinna (regardless of how you spell it) etc

If you do any of the above os part of training, then you have an excellent start because it will be in other systems in one way or another.
Interestingly, most students of taijiquan (past era) tended to study it after a few years in another style. If anything, xingyi has a better training regimen other than learning the form so it serves as a redimentary mthod to see taijiquan in a different light.
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby NC Tai Chi » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:48 pm

I understand your enthusiasum, which is a good thing. But let me pose a question to you.

How much time, during the day, do you spend training the Yang Style form? You mentioned that you have completed 1/3 of the form.

If you have only 'x' amount of time to practice what you have learned, and then add another discipline , you only have HALF the time to devote to learning the Tai Chi form and its principles.

The choice is yours, just sit down and evaluate what you want to do and what you can do.

Peace!

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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby caesar » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:01 am

Thank you both!

Michael has a point about the time issue. I had the same question for myself also. I think I will skip Bagua...there would be a cool teacher where I live. If I'd go check a lesson I'd probably get excited and not be able to resist of training both arts anyway.
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby yat_chum » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:54 am

Although I have met martial artists that advocate the virtues of learning different arts in conjunction I personally think that it is best to focus on one art and get a good foundation otherwise you just end up with a mishmash.

"The fox and the cat were standing on a hill, talking about how many ways they know of escaping from a pack of dogs. The cat feeling rather inadequate, said “I only know one way. I run up the nearest tree.” The fox gave the cat a sardonic smile and said “Well, actually, I know fifty different ways of escaping a pack of dogs” Just then a pack of dogs appeared on the horizon and ran in the direction of the fox and the cat. The cat, utilising his only escape technique, found sanctuary up a nearby tree. Whilst the fox was busy deciding which of the fifty escape techniques he should employ, he got ate by the pack of dogs."
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby caesar » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:38 am

Yes. With many arts I think it's ok to mix. But already two different Tai Chi Yang styles might have different views on how much weight on the front foot while doing for example single whip. That doesn't necessarily mean that was only one correct solution...but I fear that trying to learn both ways might only end up in confusion with no progress. Perhaps something similar could happen for a beginner, if trying to learn Bagua and Tai Chi...learning to breath in and out simultaneously.
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby Josh Young » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:04 am

taiji, bagua and xing yi are very closely related martial arts
all of them appear to have a common ancestor and the stories about the origins of their modern names and their taoist root are all relevant to this

in the taiji i was taught it is fine to also practice bagua, this is taught as well by
it is also taught one can apply taiji principals to any art, but this means to study and practice taiji is vital to being able to 'mix' it properly with anything else
the taiji moves can be done with a reliance upon forces that are not coherent with taiji principals

I would study the postures/energies in depth and focus very heavily upon the basics of taiji before attempting to learn a taiji form, the form can get in the way of the principals if it is delved into too quickly, better to learn a single posture and relevant info one at a time and then complete the form training the old way, rather than start with the form
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby caesar » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:10 am

Yes, probably wise. Teacher fixed a huge mistake about my posture yesterday which could explain major low back problems I've been having. Feels like starting from the beginning again.
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:02 am

Josh Young wrote:taiji, bagua and xing yi are very closely related martial arts

Unfortunately, it depends on the teacher! LOL Not the student. If the Yang form is causing you a hard time, the answer is NO! Don't even think of looking at bagua or xingyi YET!

How does it depend on the teacher? There are few people who can integrate arts for a student. Most instructors have their "bread and butter" and then learned a form or 2 from bagua, taiji, xingyi, shaolin, jkd or whatever else they feel will earn them a buck. In other words, they have NO IDEA what the internal aspects of the arts really are. If they have no idea, how can they teach you.

I was talking with a friend of mine who is attempting to teach Bagua to stark beginners! Even a girl who has a black belt is struggling like crazy. Why? Because bagua, when done properly, is VERY difficult! It is basically, university martial arts. I told my friend that I would NEVER start someone on bagua UNLESS they were seasoned. Even then, they would need certain attributes before it wouldnt be a waste for them and me. I told him that I would start any student on Taijf FiRST. If they wanted and were determined to learn bagua, then, after we did work on taiji in a specific way, I would start bagua earlier. Too bad that one bloke who wanted this is now just tickled pink with taiji and has left the bagua idea for a few years. Your teacher should be able to corrilate the arts for you. IF he can't then don't try to learn. Look at a squirrel! They do 10 things mediocre and NONE exceptional! DONT be a squirrel! LOL
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby brer_momonga » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:54 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
Josh Young wrote:taiji, bagua and xing yi are very closely related martial arts

Unfortunately, it depends on the teacher! LOL Not the student. If the Yang form is causing you a hard time, the answer is NO! Don't even think of looking at bagua or xingyi YET!


So, how about Sun style then?
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:24 am

brer_momonga wrote:So, how about Sun style then?

Sun luctang was a martial arts genius. If a stark beginner feels he can copy and get anything from one of the best in recent history, sure. Good luck in finding GOOD instruction. For some reason, Sun people are very "exlcusive", in my experience.
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby brer_momonga » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:56 am

on the subject of mixing - not necessarily different internal styles - but I mean different interpretations of the same family taiji style. I practice two different yang styles and if you count the work I've done on YMAA's Yang style at seminar and with the 2 videos that would acually make it three. Part of me wants to practice all three separately to keep each of them and part of me wants to blend them all together. I don't want to completely discard one, even the mainstream "simplified" (with a number attached wpgtaiji :lol:) one, because I spent a great deal of time and effort learning it. What are your thoughts on this?
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby pete5770 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:44 am

I think you have to decide how much time you have to devote to martial arts. Many other things put pressure on you that require your attention also. There's work, family, friends, the rent, bills to pay, sleep, and on and on. If you say, well, I'm going to ignore some other aspects of my life to concentrate on Tai Chi, then whatever it is you ignore i.e. friends, family, is not going to be there for you in the end. You'll know Tai Chi but not have any of your old friends around anymore, if you get my meaning? Don't neglect the rest of your life. Especially family and friends. Do some Tai Chi and whatever and be satisfied with what you are capable of doing within a certain time frame. Of course, you can always live like a hermit and do nothing but train, but a life like that has it's "issues", so to speak.
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby brer_momonga » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:37 am

yeah, the time is a very important factor and more time spent at the studio is less time at home eating dinner with the wife.
It sure takes up a lot of time but we live pretty active lifestyles so it isn't a rare thing for us to exercise for an hour or so each day. The at home practice doesn't seem to take up as much time as group practice at the studio. My goal is to practice daily (each form at least once/week but ideally each day) and go to class about twice each week and the occasional seminar.

I guess what I mean is, say one knows 3 different interpretations of the same style - do folks tend to retain all of the sequences but blend the
postures into one style, just change them around as they please, or try to practice each form exactly as they learned them and manifest their individual art within those several style mediums? With me, the biggest challenge is memory so I need a lot of repetition.
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:16 pm

brer_momonga wrote: I don't want to completely discard one, even the mainstream "simplified" (with a number attached wpgtaiji :lol:) one, because I spent a great deal of time and effort learning it. What are your thoughts on this?


mate, this is not only your issue! I too started off learning 24. It is really all there is. The problem though is, they were only ever designed for stark beginners, to give them a sense of accomplishment, etc (excluding Cheng manching's form, which is just not good. And all the derivations of that monstrosity). Erle met and was graded by Fu Zhon Wen's student, one of the 3 who made the 48 form (he put up a video on youtube of the man doing his form, so look for it) and that is what he was told by the guy who made the form!

The way I was taught taiji, the postures are designed to move qi through the body in the correct sequence. What i mean is, the qi flows from Colon meridian, to Stomach etc. The 3 thirds are not equal length, but are equal in energy distribution and flow (sorry, just cutting to chase - not 100% accurate). So with these short forms, if you start to get taiji going correctly, you are sending qi from one meridian, say Colon, to say Heart, then to Liver, etc. This actually STRESSES the body, as I was taught.

I first was excited about WTBA curriculum because, coming from a karate background, I saw only 1 form to learn!! WOOT! The more I learned, the more sequences I learned, so now, I have learned more "form" than I ever did in Karate. I was told by Erle and some seniors that the ONLY reason to still practice the "other" forms (always keep the main form, old yang in my case), is if you are going to teach them later. Otherwise, once you have learned what you need to from them, you can let that form go (which is what 24 and the rest were meant to be done with). Unfortunately, our hosts (via books and dvds) and most other taiji teachers have income tied up in these forms, so we have 30 year practitioners still doing 24 wondering why they arent getting better (or worse).

btw, bagua and xingyi are not the same as taiji. They move qi in different manners. And none of the root information here is mine (as cut short as it is).
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby Josh Young » Sat May 12, 2012 5:47 pm

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xAanzML6KEw

Some people don't even care about forms much and even go so far as to interpret them in their own way.

This form I link to is a version of the Chen Pan Ling form and has Bagua and xingyi in it. erle claims to have studied with Chen Pan Ling in his early work though he omits this in later editions. It is a great martial form, though not exactly orthodox taiji. It is a mixed form, technically making it MMA.


There is a Chinese saying that taiji takes ten years, but xingyi takes one... Xingyi is a lot easier than taiji. Many taiji teachers teach that taiji has the same elements as xingyi and Bagua in it. Mixing is said to be ok, but it is said also not to practice Bagua and taiji at the same time because the traditional training methods are very precise and you can't mix them, you could however practice both in a day, but the instruction is to keep the practice separate. An hour of xingyi, an hour of Bagua, an hour of taiji is good, but not an hour of all three mixed together...

The notion that the form is based on meridian pathway work is flawed, no two students of the old Yangs did the exact same form, they were actually taught to vary it and one of the teachings of the true transmission is to abandon the form in the end and not practice it, but to make your own based upon the shi San shi or 13 postures.
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Josh, it is great that you post a link to a video that has already been linked (by someone else). Thanks mate!
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby Josh Young » Sat May 12, 2012 9:33 pm

You can say, as you did and deleted it, that I have no authority, however I only share the true teachings.

Make of them what you will.

Erle was a great martial artist, however his system is the erle Montaigue system, not taijiquan.
I respect it, but have no problem addressing the misconceptions it contains. He was a character to be sure.

It is good for this topic, being itself a system that is mixed, containing elements of taijiquan with elements of other martial arts.

His impact upon taiji is minimal outside of the WTBA. Most taiji people have never heard of him, he is somewhat obscure.

I like that you published your form work, I hope you continue to practice and improve. Good luck.
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon May 14, 2012 1:19 pm

Josh, i took out the other stuff because it is unimportant and rude.

As to "truth", mate, where do you get your "truth" from? You claim to know ALL, yet, where is your video? Where is your background? who's truth? It isnt my truth you type? It isnt truth to many I know. Who's is it? When you actually stop thinking you are "holy than thou", you will realize that truth is not absolute. I know, it is counter-intuitive, but one day, you will get it.

As to Erle, mate, you really have to let it go. You have made the same statements about him and his art on several occasions. You say CPL.. but he wrote about that. I wonder if you have actually seen that form, or read chen's book (which I am sure you have). There are things that we do that make no sense at all from a strictly "fighting" aspect, that would be ridiculous for a white dude to replace for no reason (if he made it up). So please mate, you have some bug up your butt about Erle, let it go. We have. He has passed.

From now on, talk about your self, your style. Dont talk down anyone else (because you are talking down Erle.. a compliment then a "he didnt do taiji" is exactly that, despite massive amounts of factual evidence showing that indeed, he taught taiji). I may have started out on the wrong vein here (the forum), but i have since grown up.
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Re: Mixing as a beginner?

Postby sub_human » Tue May 15, 2012 5:20 pm

Query urself.. what form do u use when taking a gallon of milk out of the fridge(?), or when watering a plant.. ?


If u understand a form, then using it with another, becomes an art form.
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