taiji as a killing art

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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:50 pm

I hold in my hands a copy of Power T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Book Two by Erle Montaigue
copyright 1983

this edition is hand bound by Erle himself, totally self published

Note it is 4 years after he claims to meet Chang Yiu-Chun, whom he said he got the Chen Pan-Ling "Old Yang" form from.

He provides a lineage on the page before page 1
it reads
Yang Shao-Hou-------->Chen Han Ling-------->Erle Montaigue

on page 65 it also says "Erle also studied for a short time under Chen Han-Ling of China"...

where is this reference in any of his other works?
In one book he claims to have studied with the man who invented the old yang form, and then he is never mentioned again?

Ok WTBA people, what is the explanation?
Erles own works are the problem, his own claims.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:08 pm

If there was only ONE way to write a chinese name in english (i have been researching martial arts in general since 1984, and have rarely if ever seen a name, even from the same source, written the same way each time) then you would have a point. Erle used different spellings of many chinese masters in his writings. So to answer your question, big deal!

I fully realize that any answer is never enough to answer someone who doesnt want to hear it. Maybe, focus on making you and your art as perfect as it can be instead of searching for imperfections in someone who contributed more to taiji than you or I could ever hope too. At least, one can only hope...
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:19 am

It is clear to me you do not understand the significance of the Chen Pan Ling thing, Mr. Hill.
It is not about altered spellings at all, that isn't contested.

The old Yang form is the Chen Pan Ling form, according to Erle himself.
He claims to have learned from Chen Pan Ling in a single publication, and never mentions it before and again, instead he mentions that the made up teacher Chang Yiu-Chun was a classmate of Pan Ling...

Now, I know you don't care how things add up Mr Hill, like the fact that Erle says he met Chang in 1984 in several books and yet later changes this to 1978 in later works, I know this kind of thing doesn't matter to you. To someone doing real research these kinds of things are problems.

Tony Ward, this is the name after Erles name in the book i mention, research him. This is a man who was with Erle almost daily for many years in the early 80s, this person claims there is no Chang Yiu-Chun, that Erle made him up.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:08 pm

You don't really understand what I am refering too and that is ok. I feel sad for you because the man you have all these questions for is no longer with us. Now, you couldnt even see the tree for the forest, if it grew up around your feet. That is a sad place to be, especially after so little time in the arts.

I see that you hand out "opinion" to others on this forum. This tells me a great deal about the level of understanding here. I have tried to get you past your fixation on history, but alas, it is futile. It is a shame as it may have been interesting to understand your ideas on taiji.

Good luck with your studies.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Carl Rutherford » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:10 am

Hi Josh,
I understand your frustrations with Erles Lineage and there is some truth in what you say, but it does not matter it is all finished now . We all have a choice to believe or not, your sentement is noted and many follow your understanding and believe the same as you do. Tony ward name has come up many times before and I still believe that erle met an old chinese gentleman,known or unknown in spelling, made contact, learnt some forms, later realised he got a lot more than he thought and continued to work that which had been given to him for years to come. Erle is dead and passed on and only the whole truth lies with him and it is only a distraction to his great works and the art of Taiji

Tai Chi principles are that, they are principles of movment & are at the root of all internal systems and although the external form wil differ the principles remain the same,depending upon your leve of understanding.

The methods of the "old yang" are definatly internal and taiji principle based, and having "push hands" with "credited tai chi masters" I think you do not give Erle credit he is due. He is not responsible for others applying the knowledge, that is every student responsibility, he has done his part, now it time for others to do there's.

Erle certainly help put the Dim - Mak back into Tai Chi with the help of the martial arts press, right or wrong he did this because the knowledge of pressure points work was already on the martial arts circuit with Mr Dilman, whos methods he disaproved of as we all know.

We should keep this topic to its title as it goes far past Mr Montaigue
lineage. In time, I believe he will be thought of differnetly.I do not subscribe to all of his work and for good reason, but no more or less than I would for other teachers or artists.

The man was humble and nice with a good heart, with no intention to cheat everybody out of pocket. His intent was to teach, guide and give and fine qualities for anyone to follow. He may or may not of told a few lies - being human I also fall fowl to being not 100% honest , 100% of the time, we should all be mindful of pocking the stick at someone before we look at the log in our own eye.

Lets share knowledge in true martial arts way, we will never see eye to eye in every quater but its no different with music, it all has its own flaviour. and accepting the different versions is all a part of it.

keep going with your historical & practicle studies of the art, it good to have this knowledge if one has a real interest in it, for me I just like to play, train, teach, and help where I can.

Carl
http://www.dim-mak.co.uk
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:18 am

I honestly do not think Erle was a cheat or a dishonest person.

He may have had some legal reasons for the inconsistencies, clearly there is a large part missing and totally obscured from his story. What has been omitted from his story, and why, is likely never going to be fully known.

He has a rather cult like following, while not all who practice his system are fanatically obsessive Erle worshipers, some certainly are. Fanatics often regard the word of their idol as supreme and unquestionable.

I'd caution against regarding prolific output as a sign of expertise or efficacy. Functional standards and tests are ideal, but not for the verification of past events.

I believe that Eli is doing a good job holding the WTBA to a functional standard and am not aware of any controversy in any of his own learning accounts. Still, i can tell you that in my opinion and experience the WTBA seems to be missing something in terms of internal energy...
i don't know if Erle had the skill or not
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Josh, you should research Park Bak Nom next. Well, research his teacher actually. If you are looking for gapping holes in stories, that one is full of them! Park also claims he asked Lu about his teacher but was never given straight answers, only "that wont help you now." I know his lineage is bagua, but still, you have a passion, right?

My point is, if you look hard enough at ANYONE, you will find holes or inconsistencies. You and I both practice Yang taiji, yet look at Luchan or Dong of bagua. In the martial arts, I find that people who are still learning focus on WHO they learn from. That is utterly meaningless! You could take the worst student, the most unathletic person you can find and put them with the BEST teacher of the best lineage and it means squat. It isnt the teacher or the lineage that means anything. IT is the person. I spent 20 years studying from acknowledged masters of martial arts. It was all wonderful and i learned alot. IT took 3 minutes with Erle. I have talked to others that have shared similiar stories with me.

It is funny, but maybe you should hunt down some real Shao-hu people, from "good" lineages, and talk to them about Erle's art. Not the ones that dismiss out of habit, but those who have actually looked at what he does (your search will be very hard as most internal artists dismiss without actual fact or research). You would be very surprised, as I was.

Now, was taiji a killing art? YES! You dont become the trainer of the emporer because you can push people! Luchan MAY have, at the end, only pushed people to subdue them, or whatever the story is, but he would never have gotten there had he not known how to extinguish life fast and effectively. In a feudal nation that just wouldnt happen, all romance aside. TO say otherwise, you are just spouting "style" rehtoric. You find Erle's lineage hard to believe, but what I find hard, no IMPOSSIBLE to believe is that the best FIGHTERS, the best KILLERS in China would stop at being pushed! Please! It was their LIFE if they lost! It would be like a salesman giving up when their prospect simply looked at them funny (ok weak analogy, but this whole idea is silly). Please provide PROOF that China at the time we are talking about, was a peaceful nation, where no one ever fought or died from fighting. Look at the time luchan lived. How can you say that it wasnt a killing art? SHOW ME THE PROOF!!! And remember, the culture at this time, as best as i can tell, thought very little of human life (so fighting and killing were common as going to the store for you and I).

Please help me understand!
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Carl Rutherford » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:52 am

Josh Young wrote:I honestly do not think Erle was a cheat or a dishonest person.

This is great , once we see this, we come to another understanding of his lifes work

He may have had some legal reasons for the inconsistencies, clearly there is a large part missing and totally obscured from his story. What has been omitted from his story, and why, is likely never going to be fully known.

we will never know now

He has a rather cult like following, while not all who practice his system are fanatically obsessive Erle worshipers, some certainly are. Fanatics often regard the word of their idol as supreme and unquestionable.

I have met, crossed hands with, senior disciples of IP Tai Tak, Chu Gin Soon, & Mary Yang and the cult following is as rampant in them as it is in the WTBA. It a human weakness of workishiping the person one looks upto, as opposed to being inspired from them. Teachers often all foul into the same trap with wanting upmost repect because of their status or allowing oneself to become "puffed up" by student comments.
I would disagree that he was considered unquestionable by his students, infact I would say the opposite of myself and some others that I know. He gained a lot of support from students because of his giving, nothing else, many departed because of the contraversy that was always around him, and others it was time to just move on. No one has to stay with any one teacher all there life, it is not good practice unless you are there becuase it is like a family.


I'd caution against regarding prolific output as a sign of expertise or efficacy. Functional standards and tests are ideal, but not for the verification of past events.

This can be true, but it is a sign of creativity. Functional standars are within the system although they are not the same others may use as a yard of measure.

I believe that Eli is doing a good job holding the WTBA to a functional standard and am not aware of any controversy in any of his own learning accounts. Still, i can tell you that in my opinion and experience the WTBA seems to be missing something in terms of internal energy...
i don't know if Erle had the skill or not


It is great to have an opinion, I am sure any student form any system does not have every aspect of the internal energies as I have experienced this myself. Some teachers major on ward off, other listening skill, some have superb rooting methods, different styles work within a varience of deep stances, for others it is heigher. Some have accomplished skill in many areas but i still yet to meet anyone way up there behond the horizon of mortality. Balance is the key to any system style or method.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:35 am

Mr, Hill, you are right, there is more to it than pushing, but it is clear that you don't understand how that works. The straw man of thinking the application is pushing shows a facile understanding of the basic physics inherent to the art itself. If you were better educated about this matter you would know that losing ones balance not only makes one vulnerable to diverse attacks, but the energy that can be used to "push" someone can also be applied in a different and lethal way. Pushing is polite and many old masters had a respect for life.

As for the history, who did Luchan main or kill?
How about his Sons, who did they maim or kill?

Mr. Hill, why ignore history and pretend things like Luchan was a killer? He called his art cotton boxing... he was known for perfect soft technique. The fight where he got the job as an imperial instructor is well known, nobody was hurt, Luchan was famous for not hurting his opponents.

It does not seem like you are aware of the history of feuds or revenge killings, but in old China as is the case with today protecting yourself with lethal force could end up killing not only you, but all of your family and loved ones as well, even if you were legally allowed to do so. Also in many circumstances if you took a life in a fight you would be held responsible and could be put to death, even if your opponent died weeks later. It isn't like it was legal for duels to the death to be arranged as private matters.


The Dim Mak in Erles system comes from his collaborating with Madden and Simpson, not Yang Luchan.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:15 am

So much for ON TOPIC! Good luck Josh.
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