taiji as a killing art

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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:31 am

Carl Rutherford wrote:Hi Everyone,
Erle learnt the origional Dim Mak from Chang Yiu Chun who was a real person

Mr. Rutherford,
Did you ever meet Chang Yiu Chun?
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Carl Rutherford » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:14 am

Hi Josh,
The answer is no. I have not met him, neither did I meet Chu or Yang Sau Chung or any or Erle other teachers. Hope this helps.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby caesar » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:00 am

I'm curious. Erle must have known that everyone doesn't believe that there was a person named Chang Yiu Chun. Did Erle then give any explanation to why there are no photos of him or them together etc? Was it the "Chang Yiu Chun wants to remain secret." answer?

Chu King Hung hasn't for my knowledge replied anything to the fact that there are no pictures of him and Yang Sau Chung. Not even trying makes me even more suspicious...the students and teachers in ITCCA didn't seem to be even aware of the suspicion of their loved CKH. Are the students and teachers of WTBA aware of the doubts concerning where Erle got his Dim Mak etc?

But why would Erle make it up? I guess to get the approval that his art (which seems efficient) is "real" tai chi and get students. But then again, today with many people having their doubts...perhaps it would seem more "real" or reliable if someone would say "yeah I learned tai chi from that guy and that dude, didn't like this and that, mixed this and this and that and that and combined things with some pressure points I've learned which can be dangerous, yacka yacka blah blah know and welcome to WTBA...read my books."
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:39 am

If you recall the article that he has on his site where it is said he is self taught in a taiji based art that is more effective and easier to learn than what he was taught by Mr. Chu.

I believe there is a possibility that he amalgamated his art and then employed a test based upon effectiveness conveying truthfulness, despite that apparent flaw in that type of reasoning. I do feel his system is largely effective, but that effectiveness has never been the mark of historical accuracy and truth.

This is a man who was incredibly productive in his lifetime in music, writing, making videos and other activities. His work indicates a very high level of intelligence and his demeanor indicated a thoughtful and insightful person.

Imagine that having learned some taiji for a few years from a famous instructor you lose miserably in a fight and feel like the martial art you have been taught is a fraud, imagine that the instructors are teaching no hit knockouts and chi manipulations that are psychosomatic tricks.
Imagine that you read about the old masters and compare what you have been taught, this fraud, and you look to the classics as well. You then start to experiment, looking at meridian lines and points, postures and motions, you come up with basic exercises and teach them to friends so you can practice against eachother.

Imagine that you don't invent anything, but draw from previously existing knowledge, essentially doing what you feel is a recreation of the original art that you feel had been diluted before you received it.

Imagine you have an effective martial art but can't sell it as your system... you need controversy. Controversy equates to attention. And if you can just get people to try your system you know a lot of them are going to like it. But people don't want stuff like that, they want a sense of belonging to some older tradition, they crave being able to identify themselves as part of a continuation of an important tradition.

Why wouldn't the solution be to invent a man who claims to learn from one of the Yangs, his doctor, lets say, and there is no record of this, or picture of the man... and you meet the man when he is in your country undocumented, again no record. What if your accounts are that he hardly spoke english and a lot of how you learned was by example and that your time with him was rather limited... now you can come up with anything and attribute it to this man, this undocumented person and claim that your proof is the effectiveness of the art!

I can list a lot of real martial artists Erle trained with and knew, all of them having records and skills, but there is one that goes undocumented, one that is not mentioned in all of Erles own accounts of how he learned and progressed. One thing i don't want to do to Erle or his legacy is underestimate him. His intelligence and productivity, his obsessive tendencies and his life history indicate that he is just about capable of anything.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:06 pm

There is a picture of Chang! He's in the pic with all the Yang family masters!
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:14 pm

John the Monkey mind wrote:
Josh Young wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote: If one examines the forms coming from his teachings previous to this creation the content is very similar with key distinctions, for example there are jumping kicks and some very fast motions in the original style that are missing from the public version. Also one can examine the styles coming from his son Ban-hou (wu-tunan) and note that the content is very similar to the public form but with some key distinctions that are remarkably like the Wu material.


Have you come across any videos that you can share that illustrate this type of content? I would be interested to see what you are talking about. I know there is a hop in the Sabre form.

Somehow, you have me writing what someone else wrote. I would not write like that. please correct.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:20 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:There is a picture of Chang! He's in the pic with all the Yang family masters!

Where is this picture?
A picture with all the Yang Family masters?
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Carl Rutherford » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:22 am

Josh Young wrote:If you recall the article that he has on his site where it is said he is self taught in a taiji based art that is more effective and easier to learn than what he was taught by Mr. Chu.

Erle was self taught, drawing on all those he met and especially Chang.

I believe there is a possibility that he amalgamated his art and then employed a test based upon effectiveness conveying truthfulness, despite that apparent flaw in that type of reasoning. I do feel his system is largely effective, but that effectiveness has never been the mark of historical accuracy and truth.

He definatly amalgamated his art from everyone he was influenced by. All Old & new masters do it. He wrote about it to share with people and put wack the "killing part" of Taiji as an effective street art.

This is a man who was incredibly productive in his lifetime in music, writing, making videos and other activities. His work indicates a very high level of intelligence and his demeanor indicated a thoughtful and insightful person.

I agree.

Imagine that having learned some taiji for a few years from a famous instructor you lose miserably in a fight and feel like the martial art you have been taught is a fraud, imagine that the instructors are teaching no hit knockouts and chi manipulations that are psychosomatic tricks.

Anyone can loose in a fight, no matter who you trained with, no one is invincible and Erle definatly new this. Tricks will always be tricks.

Imagine that you read about the old masters and compare what you have been taught, this fraud, and you look to the classics as well. You then start to experiment, looking at meridian lines and points, postures and motions, you come up with basic exercises and teach them to friends so you can practice against eachother.

Imagine finding yourself on a path , a martial arts path that opens for you. First you find one master , then another, then this internal path leads you to another who debunks what you just been learning. You come unstuck as you "cross hands" and learn some old forms about the art, you are in a limited period and are then your left on your own again. You keep drawing from the internal impresssion that was left with you, trying to fill in the holes that you never got answered. Forever drawing upon that main experience and supplimenting it with otheres that you are also exposed too along your journey. Everyone has someone that impacts there life and spending time with that person is all about quality and not necessarily quantity. I heard Dan Insanto once say that his best students were his overseas ones that he did not see regulary.

Imagine that you don't invent anything, but draw from previously existing knowledge, essentially doing what you feel is a recreation of the original art that you feel had been diluted before you received it.

Everything that is has always been.

Imagine you have an effective martial art but can't sell it as your system... you need controversy. Controversy equates to attention. And if you can just get people to try your system you know a lot of them are going to like it. But people don't want stuff like that, they want a sense of belonging to some older tradition, they crave being able to identify themselves as part of a continuation of an important tradition.

Erle did not make controversy to make money, he was just himself which caused him grief and gave him exposure. He had it in music before taichi. Everybody likes tradition its a form of rooting, but you right not many wanted to learn form a wild man fom Oz who had a big heart, why should he of gotton this path -

Why wouldn't the solution be to invent a man who claims to learn from one of the Yangs, his doctor, lets say, and there is no record of this, or picture of the man... and you meet the man when he is in your country undocumented, again no record. What if your accounts are that he hardly spoke english and a lot of how you learned was by example and that your time with him was rather limited... now you can come up with anything and attribute it to this man, this undocumented person and claim that your proof is the effectiveness of the art!

Its al l about belief, I heard this loads of times and it used to bother me, but no longer. I just believe that he met him, and he changed his direction, focus and course. Not everything wants to believe it because of the claims of the "old yang style", he white, autralian and lived in the back of beyond. Never the less he met an old guy, got hit a few times, learnt some old forms and it changed his knowledge on tai chi to where he continued to draw on it years later. Nowbody is doing the form like Mr Yang, but having seen the old yang structured forms , this is different flavour, but both have a place.

I can list a lot of real martial artists Erle trained with and knew, all of them having records and skills, but there is one that goes undocumented, one that is not mentioned in all of Erles own accounts of how he learned and progressed. One thing i don't want to do to Erle or his legacy is underestimate him. His intelligence and productivity, his obsessive tendencies and his life history indicate that he is just about capable of anything.


I would say he progressed and learned from learning the basic forms, seeing chang do it, and having contact with him. Erle calls it the internal learning chi, see your teacher do it, have some contact and then find your own internal expression of it.

I believe where he tried to comminicate it and break it down too much was a mistake, my own personal belief but there is much valuable information he has left us.

We all hve something to add to the art and no art is an art unless our own personality is in it, I hope this helps.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:08 am

Josh Young wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:There is a picture of Chang! He's in the pic with all the Yang family masters!

Where is this picture?
A picture with all the Yang Family masters?

Its all over the internet! Its even in Doug's book on the Yang classics. No, chang isnt named specifically, but there are about 200 others that arent labeled either! I see Josh, that you dont know everything... maybe, that speaks more to the point.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:00 am

you are saying that he is anonymously in a photo of hundreds of men, but that he is not given credit in the photo?



Is this it:
yang-tai-chi-school.jpg
(127.18 KiB) Downloaded 23 times


which one is Chang?
Who told you that was him, what is your source?

Could he have used a fake name with Erle?
Tian Shao Lin, Yu Zhi Xue, Ma Run Zhi, Wu Tu Nan, and Dong Run Fang are the known students of Shao-hou. I know that in Erles writing he claims that there are only 3 students of Shao-hou, despite the facts showing otherwise. One wonders why he would make claims that are easily investigated and disproven.

There are records of all of the students, but the name Chang Yiu Chun seems to be a dead end.
Last edited by Josh Young on Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:22 am

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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Dvivid » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:04 pm

Just a few points from an outside perspective. Repeating what I've learned from Dr. Yang, not a Western view.

1. Grand Ultimate Fist, or Supreme Ultimate Fist, does not refer to taijiquan as being the "ultimate" martial art. It is correct that Taiji is the mother of yin and yang.

Within the body: in order for the body to move from a neutral (wuji) state, into a posture which is yin or yang, the mind must first generate the intention to move. Mind = taiji = grand ultimate. Taijiquan is the fist of the mind. Consciousness is the 'grand ultimate' of the body.

2. Striking an opponent in taijiquan utilizes point striking. Soft and soft/hard style Chinese martial arts use penetrating power to strike vital points, aka acupuncture cavities. This is dim mak. It is not a sales tool, it is a fundamental principle of the art. If you dont believe in acupuncture points, you're not really a taijiquan student. Go train Hapkido or Aikido which have lost a lot of depth in translation from taijiquan. or Karate.

Jin/Dim Mak: http://ymaa.com/articles/generating-jin

At the same time, the traditional study of martial arts is supposed to center around WuDe, martial morality, and a student should know inherently that killing is wrong, and typically the art is used in self defense, using soft power to neutralize an attack. Or better yet, heightened awareness to avoid an encounter entirely - the fight of no fight.

Taijiquan is not for killing any more than any other martial art.

WuDe: http://ymaa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4905&p=23126#p23126

3. Yang was known as 'unbeatable Yang' widely in China. Not a Western idea. Teachers travelled widely and competed often in public. He was undefeated.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:11 pm

Josh, you LOVE comparing basic forms... The picture was taken in the 20's or so. Erle wrote that Chang died in his 80's or so, some 60 years later. That would mean that, at the time of this photo, he was starting his training! Why would anyone, when the MASTERS were there, would put the name of Chang? Especially since he taught so widely (some one or 2 students).

btw, seek permission from the owner of the photo before posting it! Ignorance is still liable :P
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby John the Monkey mind » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:57 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:btw, seek permission from the owner of the photo before posting it! Ignorance is still liable :P


I think he would be safe under the US law of fair use as the post is for illustrative reasons and not a challenge to ownership of the image and not for profit. See the existence of youtube as proof of this concept.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:06 pm

While point striking is a part of taiji, there are also forms of taiji sold as super deadly arts as a selling point that do not draw from traditional meridian line striking, which is over 3000+ years old. It was not invented by Chang Sang-feng as is provided here:
http://www.taijiworld.com/taiji-qigong/ ... EADLY.html

Taijiquan is not for killing any more than any other martial art.

That is what i consider the truth of the matter, that it is deadly, but no more or less so than numerous martial arts.

There is no picture of Chang Yiu Chun, nor is there any kanji based name for him. He is not in the picture, and was not recorded as a student of Shao-hou.

Those interested in how Erles story changed over the years, and the time-lines involved, can learn about this for themselves. Sadly as brilliant as he was, he could not keep his story straight.

wpgtaiji wrote:btw, seek permission from the owner of the photo before posting it! Ignorance is still liable :P

I am familiar with the law.
I didn't violate fair use doctrine, i am not legally liable for any images i have presented.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:22 pm

It is a curious concept that all visible forms are shown only for beginners and there are secret forms that are more advanced, this is largely false and goes against both history and traditional learning methods.

First there are no beginner forms in the sense that one learns them first and then later learns the advanced version of the form. This is often a sign of fraud. In Chen style for example, the forms are taught one move at a time over a long period of time, this is after stance training has prepared the body for this. There are more advanced forms that can be taught in some schools, however these are not secret nor are they versions of the beginner forms, rather they are distinct.

There is no point in hiding anything in a form, one cannot learn the applications and skills through the imitation of posture, and taijiquan as a system cannot be learned from book and DVD alone, it requires hands on training and correction of energies. The majority of the forms that we can see today are exactly what they appear to be and are not public versions of secret methods.

Changing the frame size and internalizing the movements does not equate to doing a more advanced form or version of it. And in many systems the form is rejected in the end, it is done away with, because it is too codified to embody taijiquan, or the system of the mother of yin and yan.

Yang Luchans nickname translates to "void (of) rivals" not "unbeatable" the name was Wu Di, which seems to even be a play on the concept of martial morality as "Wu De"
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Dvivid » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:24 pm

Yes, point striking was not invented by Zhang, San Feng. Neither was taijiquan.

http://ymaa.com/articles/origin-of-taijiquan
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:36 pm

I think Erle could be called "Wu Shi" as a nickname.


i love that origin of taiji article, for example the illustration of the Bamboo scrolls is incredible!
They are very much akin to Palm leaf scrolls.

He was a monk who was deeply versed in Daoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism. In his "On the Great Dao" (Dadao Lun), he stated that these religions had the same origin and they share the tendency to develop one's moral character and "cultivate the Dao."


I agree with this entirely.
i believe that internal arts were always a part of Buddhist monastic lifestyle.

some also claim that Siddhartha was taught by a Taoist... something i am open to considering

I am not entirely convinced that Taoism is native to China myself, but that is a topic for another day.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:09 am

Josh, you are so certain, yet, you do not have a list of all the people in that pic. You also have no idea who owns the pic! You also have no idea who studied with Shao-hu and who hasnt! You take your own interpretation as gospel. I listen to folks who actually know something about shao-hu lineages! (and are NOT associated with WTBA) And you are about truth? Truth from what? from who?

The problem is, your EGO is too big to be wrong, even though you have no idea what is real. Here is a summary of what you are saying: this was written/filmed/told by Erle, this is what I know to be true, since it doesnt mesh, Erle cant be right! DUDE! You have no clue as to what real martial arts are! You got lucky finding a chen school and that was it. Did YOU meet your supposed teacher? NO! You never met him! So how do we know what you do is real? RIGHT! WE DONT! It is YOUR teacher's interpretation of what Chen supposedly taught him, which, with the quality of people left in the martial arts, may not be accurate (though it may be bang on). The reality is, without Chen, we will NEVER know! Which is why the videos you claim to be of luchan lineage mean nothing! The dude that learned from Luchan died YEARS ago and maybe the people who followed never had the interest (it happened to the Yang family)!

Erle is laughing right now! You have no clue about anything about the WTBA! You say your friend is in it, and maybe he is. There are different qualities of teachers in the WTBA. Some are just starting out and some are learning the system as they go (which is what your description of the methods taught sound like). You claim to know, but you are shooting in the dark like the rest. If you actually DID know anything about the system that Erle taught, you wouldnt be saying any of the drivel you are! It seems that you are trying to defend YOUR style by badmouthing someone else'. That isnt very warrior-like!

Erle told me that there are those who got it and those who would never get it, no matter what proof was given. HE didnt want those ones, which is why he put out what he did. That you have no clue about that speaks more that anything you write.

The really funny thing for me is, you said you are at this forum because you respect YMMA material. Interesting in itself. Maybe, just maybe, you dont know half as much as you think you do! Good luck buddy. You bore the hell out of me. At first it was interesting, but your clear lack of understanding makes it difficult to take you seriously.

namaste
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:53 am

i've read almost all of Erles articles and books, while he was alive he and i spoke via email several times. I am about to go train with a WTBA student, someone i have worked with for 4 years. I know a great deal of the system and the material it covers, this is the only reason i contest the claims it has. You can insult me, fine, and you can insult my friend in the WTBA, fine. I do not offer insults to you. I do challenge you, or anyone, in the WTBA to back up their claims with historical evidence.

A very close friend of mine is in the WTBA, as i said they fly Eli out yearly and have done so for 3 years. You are welcome, whatever your name is, i know it isn't on the list of official WTBA teachers despite you offering classes, to take the time to find me, meet me, and test me.

My teacher was not Chen, i studied Chen for a short time with a man taught by the Chen family in Bejing. However my main teacher was from a line started by Chen Wei-ming. I've also studied Sun style form, Wu form and the Chen Man-ching form/material.

I've said over and over that Erles material is martial and that his story lacks continuity and historical accuracy. I've drawn from him as my primary source for every claim here, including that he was self taught. I have also used my real name and have nothing to hide.

You can dismiss me all you want.

The invitation to push hands still stands.

But i ask you, what if you are wrong?

i have met the teacher of my teacher, by the way. He is the son of Leung King Yu, student of Chen Wei-ming. Here is a photo of King-yu with Chen Wei-ming:
da lu 2.jpg
(11.27 KiB) Downloaded 3 times


Here is another with Chen Wei-ming, King Yu and Cheng Fu:
theee.jpg
(21.52 KiB) Downloaded 1 time


I can verify the existence of every teacher and claim in the art i love.

Can you?
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