~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

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~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:53 am

People I support Syncretism (Persuasive Harmony), I've read an article which stated that Tai Chi Chuan evolved from Syncretism between Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism, Taoist Master Zhang Sanfeng is credited for having originated the concepts of Tai Chi Chuan.

Rather interesting article about the article of the origin of Tai Chi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Sanfeng
Last edited by Phalanxpursos on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Brian » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:50 am

See here for another perspective.....includes a link to 'Part 2' at bottom of page:

http://ymaa.com/articles/origin-of-taijiquan

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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Josh Young » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:07 am

There is a Taoist tradition than San-feng was taught by another Taoist, that San-feng did not create the art that later became taijiquan.

He is kind of like the Chinese version of Paul Bunyan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bunyan
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:06 am

Thanks for the URL, I also support the version of the Chen family being evolved with the origin of Tai Chi Chuan.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Josh Young » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:53 pm

One name involved with the origin of taijiquan that is worth looking into for those who study is Jiang Fa.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby yeniseri » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:37 pm

Anyone familiar with the Li-Chen family origin dynamic as opposed to the semi legendary figure of Chang Sanfeng (at least 3 personages). They are the ones who actually synthesized what is know as Chen family style.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle30.htm
Taizu Changquan part of synthesis
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Dvivid » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:50 am

There are many unnamed masters who were a major part of the evolution of Taijiquan. Sanfeng is considered a symbolic Wudang patriach, akin to DaMo from Shaolin. The Daoists needed a cultural hero indigenous to China, because at times Buddhism was outlawed and the lineage of Da Mo and the Buddhist Shaolin temple were considered "foreign" and were disrespected.

Taijiquan as we know it today evolved out of Shaolin Long Fist and other archaic forms, combined with principles of Tu Na and Dao Yin. No one knows the correct answer to this question, and IMO we should respect all lineages that contributed to Taijiquan; Chen Village, Wudang mountain, and Shaolin.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:22 am

Brian wrote:http://ymaa.com/articles/origin-of-taijiquan


Dvivid wrote:we should respect all lineages that contributed to Taijiquan; Chen Village, Wudang mountain, and Shaolin.


Yeah I discovered that Tai Chi has it roots in Syncretism, which means Persuasive Harmony between Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism. Anyway thanks everyone for your replies, the information is quite interesting and I am happy to have brought up the subject.

Have nice day.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Josh Young » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:45 am


Yeah I discovered that Tai Chi has it roots in Syncretism, which means Persuasive Harmony between Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism. Anyway thanks everyone for your replies, the information is quite interesting and I am happy to have brought up the subject.

Have nice day.


I would love to learn more about this and the school of thought and evidences it entails. It is new to me! Could you explains little bit more about this?

How does taijiquan have "roots" in syncretism?
Thanks!
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby adamfuray » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:52 pm

-there is no evidence that Zhang San Feng was a martial artist, or ever alive for that matter. The "epitaphs" that people use to "cite" his existence are allegorical.

-The 1st time Zhang San Feng was ever mentioned in association with Taijiquan was in 1867, a claim made by Wu Yu Xiang. His student Li Yi Yu, who published this claim, recanted it one year after his teachers death, expressing his skepticism by saying "the creator of taijiquan is unkown"

-There is a picture of Jiang Fa and Chen Wang Ting in Chen Village. He was a rebel military officer that took refuge with the Chen's in the late Ming dynasty after a failed coup, and subsequently became a student. In order to believe that Jiang Fa existed, you must also believe the Chen family claims, considering that they are the only reliable source claiming Jiang Fa ever existed.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Josh Young » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:39 pm

adamfuray wrote:-there is no evidence that Zhang San Feng was a martial artist, or ever alive for that matter. The "epitaphs" that people use to "cite" his existence are allegorical.

Interesting notion.
Allegory you say?
I'd love some elaboration on that.

Taoist oral tradition is a curious thing:
It is said that Taijiquan (ancestral form) was practiced by Cheng I Tao Jen.
There is a curious lineage given as well, it goes as follows:
Lao-Tzu---->Yin-Hsi---->Ma I---->(big gap here)---->Chen Hsi-I---->Huo-lung----> Chang Sang Feng
Now keep in mind this is an oral tradition about Tao, not martial arts, however it is said also that this group of 6, called the Sect of Hidden Immortals had a major role in the development of taijiquan.

It is also said that it was a Chang Seng-feng disciple from Lo-Shan who taught Yang Luchan, although it is also claimed that Luchan himself learned from Seng-Feng himself.

But oral tradition is not often regarded as evidence by scholars... still it is curious.

-The 1st time Zhang San Feng was ever mentioned in association with Taijiquan was in 1867, a claim made by Wu Yu Xiang. His student Li Yi Yu, who published this claim, recanted it one year after his teachers death, expressing his skepticism by saying "the creator of taijiquan is unkown"

It is a shame we cannot investigate past oral tradition, I cannot help but wonder about this claim. What you refer to is written, however it does not mean that an oral teaching of the same claim did not precede its being published.

Interestingly the Yangs themselves credited Sang-Feng with the origin of their art... why?


-There is a picture of Jiang Fa and Chen Wang Ting in Chen Village. He was a rebel military officer that took refuge with the Chen's in the late Ming dynasty after a failed coup, and subsequently became a student. In order to believe that Jiang Fa existed, you must also believe the Chen family claims, considering that they are the only reliable source claiming Jiang Fa ever existed.

Chen claims are worth considering.
I note they claim Taoist teachings formed a major part of their family art... the Chen account fails to contradict the Taoist oral traditions.

We must not confuse however, the claims of Tang Hoa with the claims of the Chens.
He was the scholar that claimed Taijiquan was a Chen invention.
The Chens even cite him for this claim, however their own account states that their art was made from various other teachings, including Taoist elements... and then we come back to the Taoist claims because of the Chen claims.

I have my own theories, but they do include martial transmissions related to Taoism.
I don't even think that taijiquans roots are Chinese at all.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby adamfuray » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:56 pm

I am saying there is zero evidence to support any of those claims. I'm not saying it isn't true.
There is, however, evidence that Yang Luchan was in Chen Village. No one disputes that. There is also evidence that he was considered a great fighter some time in between the time he left Chen village and the time he died. Also, undisputed.
There is also enough similarity between Chen style and Shaolin/Qi Ji Guang's system to make assumptions about the source of Chen Wang Ting's art. It is also worth noting the Shaolin temple a mere two days walk from Chen Village, and the previous generations of vague family martial arts that started with Chen Bu, 5 generations prior.
Taiji, being an ancient Taoist concept does not logically assert that a Taoist was teaching anyone Taijiquan, or whatever it may have been called at the time. The word Taijiquan probably wasn't used prior to 1854.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby adamfuray » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:38 pm

Josh Young wrote:Interesting notion.
Allegory you say?
I'd love some elaboration on that.


here is one. This is the earliest mention of Zhang San Feng as a martial artist. This is from Huang Zong Xi's "Epitaph for Wang Zheng Nan":

"The Internal School [Neijiaquan] originated with Zhang San Feng of the Song Dynasty. San Feng was a Daoist immortality seeker of the Wu Dang Mountains. Emperor Hui Zong summoned him, but the roads were impassable and he could not proceed. That night in a dream he recieved a martial art from the God of War and the next morning he singlehandedly killed more than one hundred bandits"

The "epitaph" was not intended to be read as history. It is a political allegory obliquely deprecating the ruling Manchu government by holding up a well-known native Daoist as the originator of a superior type of martial art in opposition to the foreign art practiced at the Shaolin Temple. Nowhere is Taijiquan named.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:23 am

adamfuray wrote: There is, however, evidence that Yang Luchan was in Chen Village. No one disputes that. There is also evidence that he was considered a great fighter some time in between the time he left Chen village and the time he died. Also, undisputed.

All well supported I agree.
Luchan is interesting, it is said he claimed Chang Seng-Feng was the originator of his art.
I wonder why?

There is also enough similarity between Chen style and Shaolin/Qi Ji Guang's system to make assumptions about the source of Chen Wang Ting's art. It is also worth noting the Shaolin temple a mere two days walk from Chen Village, and the previous generations of vague family martial arts that started with Chen Bu, 5 generations prior.


Indeed.
Tai Tzu Chang Chuan was said to have been employed by Wang-Ting in making his art and does contain the 8 energies.

Chen Bu is said to have been quite skilled. He is almost the founder of Chenjiagou, which when he moved to it was known as Changyang Village. It is said martial arts were practiced in the village since his time, more than 500 years ago.

Taiji, being an ancient Taoist concept does not logically assert that a Taoist was teaching anyone Taijiquan, or whatever it may have been called at the time.

Quite true.
The oral tradition that a martial art was practiced by Taoists has nothing to do with the modern name of taijiquan. I am sorry if I implied otherwise.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:40 am

Josh Young wrote:Luchan is interesting, it is said he claimed Chang Seng-Feng was the originator of his art.
I wonder why?


Wu Yu Xiang, the guy I mentioned above, was a student of Yang Luchan, and he probably heard it from him. There is, again, zero evidence. This is just the most likely possibility. So why did Wu Yu Xiang make up the ZSF lineage? Wu lived at a time when China's last dynasty was crumbling under commercial and political encroachments of western "barbarians." Huang Zong Xi had previously used ZSF as a symbol for rallying national sentiment against foreign invaders, and Wu Yu Xiang was clearly doing the same.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:21 am

I don't think that this claim originated with a student of Luchan, there is no evidence that Wu Yu Xiang invented the claim himself. He merely writes it down.

Perhaps foolishly, I do not associate a written claim with the origin of the claim.

I've read so many different versions of the origin of Taijiquan that I can't help but feel that nobody really knows and the best we have are speculations.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:48 am

Maybe fifty years ago it was, but currently this subject isn't exactly ambiguous. (according to libraries at least). Unfortunately, most of the good texts are in Chinese :(
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:04 am

I regard the theories about the origins as speculations at best.
Pointing out for example, that a claim lacks evidence does not contradict it.

I'd love for some references on the topic, even if they are in Chinese.

Sanskrit is also a language worth reading to know more about this topic.

There was a lot of cultural exchange in the past that nationalists tend to want to discredit or to ignore.

This is one of my favorite areas of study. It is a lot of fun.
Thanks for the information!
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby yeniseri » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:35 am

From my objective perspective, all taijiquan that I am aware of today, has sources in Chen village. Re-engineering history and its context is the norm in societies that tend to be literate so it makes sense that if one could not inherit an art, the best strategy would be to make up some lineal connection since you know the rest of the populace is illiterate and get away with it. I know of no one who studied an alternate 'taijiquan" system (coming from Chen family) ONLY while saying that it is easy to copy a system, do some revisions and call it your own. It happens today (if anyone was looking) and if one is skillful, we have a new art.
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Re: ~ The Origin of Tai Chi Chuan ~

Postby Dvivid » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:13 pm

On the other hand...

It is well-documented in Chinese that many of the postures, or patterns, of Tai Chi, specifically the form called Yang-style, pre-date Chen Taijiquan by 1,000 years. In fact, even the names of the postures remain the same, such as "Phoenix Waves Its Wings". So, though there is no clear black and white lineage named Taijiquan that we can trace back before Chen Taijiquan, it is true that the movements, principles, and taiji philosophy pre-date the Chen lineage.

Ultimately, who cares?! Its interesting to know the history, but there are many, many unnamed masters who have helped to develop this art and pass it down to us. What is important is that the essential principles, taiji philosophy, and internal aspects of Taijiquan are preserved.
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