use of the kua in yang taiji

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use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby bobctaiji » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:16 pm

I am curious about the use of the kua, which i have been told is the ball in the hip socket. Is the kua where all motion is derived from? From my understanding, all motion of the entire body starts with the movement of the kua and that is where power comes from? I appreciate any input on the subject.
Peace
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby Josh Young » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:42 am

In taiji the waist is commander, all movement and power originates there, the kua is an important part of the foundation the waist rests upon but I think that it is over emphasized to an absurd degree by many people

For me the power of taijiquan and the motion of it comes from the use of the waist, not the kua. Taiji does open and stretch the kua though.
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby bobctaiji » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:18 pm

thank you for your reply:) so you could say that the kua may initiate a movement but the real source of power lies in the waist.
Peace.
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:35 pm

Interesting...

I wonder how he explains "Power is initiated in the feet; DIRECTED by the waist; and manifests in the fingers"?

Nevermind, Josh is very well read on his ideas of taiji, but god forbide, anyone give an alternate opinion!

As to kwa, it is simple. Keep a bridge in your arms and legs and you will be fine. What I mean is, dont have your legs together (loose the hip kwa) and don't have your arms against your body (loose arm kwa). I realize that many will argue against this (and I am not trying to be complete), but you asked. It can be literally, that simple.
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby Josh Young » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:31 am

the Jin should be
rooted in the feet,
generated from the legs,
controlled by the waist, and
manifested through the fingers.


wpgtaiji wrote:Interesting...

I wonder how he explains "Power is initiated in the feet; DIRECTED by the waist; and manifests in the fingers"?

Nevermind, Josh is very well read on his ideas of taiji, but god forbide, anyone give an alternate opinion!

You give a very curious translation.
Nearly all others say that the root is at the feet.

I much prefer the literal translations to what you present.
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby Josh Young » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:45 am

Relax the waist
The waist is the commander of the whole body. Only after you are able to relax the waist will the two legs have strength and the lower body be stable. The alternation of empty and full all derive from the turning of the waist. Hence the saying: 'The wellspring of destiny lies in the tiny interstice of the waist.' ** Whenever there is a lack of strength in your form, you must look for it in in the waist and legs.


I like how Yang Chengfu put it above.
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:15 pm

Josh Young wrote:
Relax the waist
The waist is the commander of the whole body. Only after you are able to relax the waist will the two legs have strength and the lower body be stable. The alternation of empty and full all derive from the turning of the waist. Hence the saying: 'The wellspring of destiny lies in the tiny interstice of the waist.' ** Whenever there is a lack of strength in your form, you must look for it in in the waist and legs.


I like how Yang Chengfu put it above.

If it were Chen fu then sure! Alas, no one is sure who WROTE what, as Chenfu had a few ghost writers. I wonder if you truly understand what is being said in these lines?
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby brer_momonga » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:53 pm

here we go again...
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby Josh Young » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:09 pm

It was allegedly written for Chengfu by WeiMing but is said to have contained Chengfus teachings and was approved by him. However I believe he does quote the SengFeng classic.

They do teach a certain understanding of these lines in the teachings coming from ChengFu like WeiMings transmissions including what reached me via my teacher.
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:10 pm

brer_momonga wrote:here we go again...

nah! I did a test. :) Interesting... very interesting indeed!
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby yeniseri » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:19 pm

bobctaiji wrote:I am curious about the use of the kua, which i have been told is the ball in the hip socket. Is the kua where all motion is derived from? From my understanding, all motion of the entire body starts with the movement of the kua and that is where power comes from? I appreciate any input on the subject.
Peace


I know for a fact, through experience, that kua is not hip socket ball!
Experientially and a general comment that kua and yao (waist) work together within a structure that allows for use in tuishou, from which is extrapolated in the form and become a part of it in execution. Motion can be derived from anywhere (horizontally and vertically) within that structure. I am unsure that movement comes from the kua because it (power) has to be generated and it may come from the foot, obviously but redirection allows for indirect 'falling into emptiness', which may or may not rely on ground power but body stabilization. Hard to describe!
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby chh » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:43 am

So one question is about the role of the kua in generating power. I think it's involved in that (you can feel this especially in moves that shift from back to front with the waist turning from turned to square), and it may not be necessary to get into a discussion of how to interpret the tai chi classics in order to see how it's involved.

There's another really important way that the kua is used in tai chi, and that's its role in accommodating the sinking of the dan tien, and I think in sung jin as well. Having the kua loose and flexible is part of what allows your momentum to travel downwards to the feet at the end of fa jing, and you can notice this especially in moves like press or brush knee where the weight shift and waist turn occur together. At the last instant of those moves, if I don't direct the forward momentum down and absorb it in the kua, I tend to lose my root and fall forward or mess up the force. I think the mobility in the kua is also part of what keeps your root stable and difficult to perturb in push hands practice.

I guess I sort of think of the kua as lining up with the inguinal canal, or like the 'abs/leg interface' where the top part of the thigh meets the lower abdomen.

I'd like to know if anyone else has thoughts about the connection of the kua to sung energy and rooting.
Last edited by chh on Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby pete5770 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:35 am

I have to say, you guys really do know your Tai Chi. I'm still stumped by Josh and his "...wellspring of destiny..." statement. :? :? :wink:
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby pete5770 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:26 pm

Josh Young wrote:It was allegedly written for Chengfu by WeiMing but is said to have contained Chengfus teachings and was approved by him. However I believe he does quote the SengFeng classic.

They do teach a certain understanding of these lines in the teachings coming from ChengFu like WeiMings transmissions including what reached me via my teacher.

You seem like a good guy. Let's hear some of your ideas instead of the constant rehash of "..the ancients say...." and "....the masters tell us....". We have all heard or read, at least some or most, of the quotes that are out there and have all processed them in our minds to whatever degree we see fit. Is it possible that some of these quotes were merely ideas that people had and that they may have turned out wrong, as some ideas do? Not all that is said should be taken as "gospel". A lot of things are said that sound profound but rarely do we know the intent of the man saying it, especially something said 200 years ago. Some of it could have been simply casual conversation, that got noted by someone, as oppossed to great proclamations of ultimate truth.
And anyway these "ancients" were, after all, only men, much like you and I, warts and all. I'd much rather hear your ideas. We can't stay in the past forever and our minds are every bit as good as theirs were. But I rant on, sorry.
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby Josh Young » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:01 pm

Pete, is it all in the oral teachings that accompany the physical demonstration of the teachings.
My ideas don't matter here, the teachings are perfect.
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby pete5770 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:28 pm

Josh Young wrote:
My ideas don't matter here, the teachings are perfect.


For once you have left me without words. WHEW
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Re: use of the kua in yang taiji

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:14 am

the chinese word kua refers generally to the region of the pelvic bone, and specifically to the joint formed by the pelvic bone and the top of the femur. The expression song kua means "relax the kua" and applies to the joint supporting the weighted leg (or legs if your stance is double weighted).
The expression "open the kua" means generally that the knees should not tip inward. In practice, this rule pertains primarily to the knee of the weighted leg, particularly in side bow-stances.
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