Questions that need asking

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Questions that need asking

Postby pete5770 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:17 pm

We all have them. What are yours? I'll start with one I heard the other day.
"Why do we need to bring the unweighted foot back to center before extending it out toward the next position? Is this necessary or would simply moving it via the shortest line be the best bet?
I've noticed video of older masters not returning to center. Is this because they simply don't need to or have they simply grown lazy?" It went something like that.
Any ideas out there?
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:12 pm

In what context pete? It really depends on what you are doing.

If it is bagua circle walking, you MUST brush ankles EVERY step, or you are just pretending. If you are doing taiji, it depends. I have actually seen the same posture taught about 3 different ways (specifically the stepping) and ONE was bringing the legs together when stepping. The other 2 were different. It has its reason, but, depending on what style, that has probably been lost as well.

If you are talking about government forms (24, 48) then tell them NOT TO DO THOSE FORMS! LOL Seriously, without a context, it is impossible to give you any sort of real answer.
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby Dvivid » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:34 am

Im a Taiji beginner, but I think Dr. Yang has said that the stepping in the form is only to teach good habits. Once your taiji becomes 'alive', meaning you are familiar with the forms and begin to add angling during an application, then there are no stepping rules, only principles and strategy.

Good question, now Im thinking...
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby pete5770 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:48 am

wpgtaiji wrote:In what context pete? It really depends on what you are doing.

If it is bagua circle walking, you MUST brush ankles EVERY step, or you are just pretending. If you are doing taiji, it depends. I have actually seen the same posture taught about 3 different ways (specifically the stepping) and ONE was bringing the legs together when stepping. The other 2 were different. It has its reason, but, depending on what style, that has probably been lost as well.

If you are talking about government forms (24, 48) then tell them NOT TO DO THOSE FORMS! LOL Seriously, without a context, it is impossible to give you any sort of real answer.


Yang long form.
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby pete5770 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:36 pm

Dvivid wrote:Im a Taiji beginner, but I think Dr. Yang has said that the stepping in the form is only to teach good habits. Once your taiji becomes 'alive', meaning you are familiar with the forms and begin to add angling during an application, then there are no stepping rules, only principles and strategy.

Good question, now Im thinking...


Still begs the question of why. What's the point in doing it? Why do all teachers want students
to do this? What does it reinforce, if anything?
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:48 pm

[quote="pete5770"
Still begs the question of why. What's the point in doing it? Why do all teachers want students
to do this? What does it reinforce, if anything?[/quote]

Again, I have NEVER been taught what you describe. I have no idea to what it is you are refering too. Your student that asked you this question has every right to call you on the BS that you are teaching him if you pass on something and dont have any understanding as to why it is done that way. WIth respect to teaching, that is FUNDAMENTAL! How can you teach something you dont understand?

Maybe i answered my own question...
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby pete5770 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:47 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:[quote="pete5770"
Still begs the question of why. What's the point in doing it? Why do all teachers want students
to do this? What does it reinforce, if anything?


Again, I have NEVER been taught what you describe. I have no idea to what it is you are refering too. Your student that asked you this question has every right to call you on the BS that you are teaching him if you pass on something and dont have any understanding as to why it is done that way. WIth respect to teaching, that is FUNDAMENTAL! How can you teach something you dont understand?

Maybe i answered my own question...[/quote]

You have shifted all your weight back on your right foot. You then start shifting all your weight to your left foot, as you would when you are moving to next stance in the form. i.e. from brush knee push right to brush knee push left. As you right foot becomes unweighted and starts it's "journey", if you will, to its new position it does not take a direct line to this new spot. Instead(or so it is said) it must come back to center(near the left foot) and then continue on toward its gong bu position for brush knee push left. Sort of an arc movement and not in a straight line from its starting point to its final position. The question was why is this done or why is it important or what purpose does it serve?
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:33 pm

Ah yes! That is what taiji fiction calls "yield"! A total and utter misrepresentation of the actual principle! Your student has the right to call what you are teaching him garbage. People have strong feelings about govt in food, family life, etc, but when it comes to something that is so intimate.. like MOVEMENT, they ignore it!

Those short forms are BS. There is no taiji in any of them. They were petitions from the chinese government to give the illusion that they were trying to preserve the "old ways". Erle met one of the men who created the 48 peking form. He told Erle that he did it ONLY to improve the quality of his life! What a reason to make a "health" form!! LOL The 24 is the same. They were only ever meant to be a doorway to start people on learning taiji. Somewhere along the way, they became the entire art. Now, we have intelligent people questioning the ridiculousness of them, and the teachers struggling to understand why.

I am fully aware that YMAA has books and videos on these forms. Like I said, their purpose was supposed to be a STARTING point, not the be all end all. They should be discarded by the practitioner as soon as they have gotten what they needed from them (balance, timing, coordination) and move on to the older forms.

To answer your question, it ISNT done that way at all, in real taiji (vs government stuff). I was taught that the foot comes straight through. Like I said before, pete, you need a new taiji teacher.
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby pete5770 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:47 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:Ah yes! That is what taiji fiction calls "yield"! A total and utter misrepresentation of the actual principle! Your student has the right to call what you are teaching him garbage. People have strong feelings about govt in food, family life, etc, but when it comes to something that is so intimate.. like MOVEMENT, they ignore it!

Those short forms are BS. There is no taiji in any of them. They were petitions from the chinese government to give the illusion that they were trying to preserve the "old ways". Erle met one of the men who created the 48 peking form. He told Erle that he did it ONLY to improve the quality of his life! What a reason to make a "health" form!! LOL The 24 is the same. They were only ever meant to be a doorway to start people on learning taiji. Somewhere along the way, they became the entire art. Now, we have intelligent people questioning the ridiculousness of them, and the teachers struggling to understand why.

I am fully aware that YMAA has books and videos on these forms. Like I said, their purpose was supposed to be a STARTING point, not the be all end all. They should be discarded by the practitioner as soon as they have gotten what they needed from them (balance, timing, coordination) and move on to the older forms.

To answer your question, it ISNT done that way at all, in real taiji (vs government stuff). I was taught that the foot comes straight through. Like I said before, pete, you need a new taiji teacher.


Whoa, wp, wow, that was like pulling teeth from you. It was only a question. Me also thinks you have made a couple of assumtions that aren't quite right.
1.) Not my student and not my class.
2.) I did not offer any explanation. See #1.
3.) Did I mention LONG form? I think so. Not that it had anything to do with the question.
4.) Can't help you with your disenchantment with short forms and the Chinese government.
5.) As I recall the student didn't mention "garbage" when the instructor explained it.
6.) I'll make note that you say "it ISN'T done that way...". Make that one vote for straight
through. No, actually 2. It's a small poll, so far.
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:28 pm

pete, dont be a moron.
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby Josh Young » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:32 am

pete5770 wrote:You have shifted all your weight back on your right foot. You then start shifting all your weight to your left foot, as you would when you are moving to next stance in the form. i.e. from brush knee push right to brush knee push left. As you right foot becomes unweighted and starts it's "journey", if you will, to its new position it does not take a direct line to this new spot. Instead(or so it is said) it must come back to center(near the left foot) and then continue on toward its gong bu position for brush knee push left. Sort of an arc movement and not in a straight line from its starting point to its final position. The question was why is this done or why is it important or what purpose does it serve?

It has to do with the energy and balance of the movement
one returns to and extends from ones center of gravity
the reason for this should be clear in the motion itself
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby pete5770 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:14 am

Josh Young wrote:
pete5770 wrote:You have shifted all your weight back on your right foot. You then start shifting all your weight to your left foot, as you would when you are moving to next stance in the form. i.e. from brush knee push right to brush knee push left. As you right foot becomes unweighted and starts it's "journey", if you will, to its new position it does not take a direct line to this new spot. Instead(or so it is said) it must come back to center(near the left foot) and then continue on toward its gong bu position for brush knee push left. Sort of an arc movement and not in a straight line from its starting point to its final position. The question was why is this done or why is it important or what purpose does it serve?

It has to do with the energy and balance of the movement
one returns to and extends from ones center of gravity
the reason for this should be clear in the motion itself



Let's say this is true. Could constant practice eliminate the need for doing it? i.e. your balance, over the years improves to a point that sweeping the foot forward in an arc becomes unnecessary? So straight through becomes "the way"?
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby pete5770 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:15 am

wpgtaiji wrote:pete, dont be a moron.


About what????
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby Brian » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:33 am

Josh Young wrote:It has to do with the energy and balance of the movement
one returns to and extends from ones center of gravity
the reason for this should be clear in the motion itself


I don't agree with this...especially if you take Taiji as a martial art..If you were advancing towards me, using this 'return to center' step, I would sweep you, both legs together, before you completed the step. The whole point of the Taiji priciple 'Substantial/Insubstantial' when moving forward (or back) is that transferring 100% to the forward leg allows the rear one to empty, thus allowing you to step straight forward, placing heel first before transferring weight. Any sweeps to this advancing leg are ineffective as it can be moved/withdrawn with little effort.

pete5770 wrote:Let's say this is true. Could constant practice eliminate the need for doing it? i.e. your balance, over the years improves to a point that sweeping the foot forward in an arc becomes unnecessary? So straight through becomes "the way"?


The arc is unnecessary, and dangerous (application-wise). This holds true for external arts as well...two feet close together is an invitation to sweep the person out of it.
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby pete5770 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:09 am

Brian wrote:
Josh Young wrote:It has to do with the energy and balance of the movement
one returns to and extends from ones center of gravity
the reason for this should be clear in the motion itself


I don't agree with this...especially if you take Taiji as a martial art..If you were advancing towards me, using this 'return to center' step, I would sweep you, both legs together, before you completed the step. The whole point of the Taiji priciple 'Substantial/Insubstantial' when moving forward (or back) is that transferring 100% to the forward leg allows the rear one to empty, thus allowing you to step straight forward, placing heel first before transferring weight. Any sweeps to this advancing leg are ineffective as it can be moved/withdrawn with little effort.

pete5770 wrote:Let's say this is true. Could constant practice eliminate the need for doing it? i.e. your balance, over the years improves to a point that sweeping the foot forward in an arc becomes unnecessary? So straight through becomes "the way"?


The arc is unnecessary, and dangerous (application-wise). This holds true for external arts as well...two feet close together is an invitation to sweep the person out of it.


Still, if you're sweeping me off my feet and one foot is unweighted, does it matter where the unweighted foot is? Whether it's arcing in back to center or going in a straight line to the next position you only have to kick out the weighted foot and I'm down. The position of the unweighted one is meaningless???? Although the unweighted one could, by virtue of it being out of the way, save you from falling????
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby Brian » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:34 am

pete5770 wrote:Still, if you're sweeping me off my feet and one foot is unweighted, does it matter where the unweighted foot is? Whether it's arcing in back to center or going in a straight line to the next position you only have to kick out the weighted foot and I'm down. The position of the unweighted one is meaningless???? Although the unweighted one could, by virtue of it being out of the way, save you from falling????


The sweep would be carried out as the unweighted foot is just arriving at the center beside the weighted one...thus using it's impetus against the other, upsetting your center of gravity just enough to unbalance you...also, invariably, most who do this kind of stepping actually raise their center of gravity and lose their root (ie, the body rises slightly to acommodate the incoming leg).
Maybe you do it differently...so my comment is a general statement rather than specific to you.
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby pete5770 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:35 pm

Brian wrote:
pete5770 wrote:Still, if you're sweeping me off my feet and one foot is unweighted, does it matter where the unweighted foot is? Whether it's arcing in back to center or going in a straight line to the next position you only have to kick out the weighted foot and I'm down. The position of the unweighted one is meaningless???? Although the unweighted one could, by virtue of it being out of the way, save you from falling????


...also, invariably, most who do this kind of stepping actually raise their center of gravity and lose their root (ie, the body rises slightly to acommodate the incoming leg).


Yes, couldn't agree more. Also, it think people start rising up the minute, or even just before, they go onto one leg. Then as the leg moves toward center they go even a bit more up. Although I find, if I watch myself closely, that I may rise up slightly no matter how I move my leg.
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby Josh Young » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:58 pm

Ever do forward and backward stepping push hands?
It has the same basic center/waiste based stepping,.
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:10 pm

The martial arts are one place where what the MAJORITY is doing, does not make it correct!

Look at karate! The version 99% of people practice was designed for Okinawan school children! Arguably, the majority of taiji today is of the silly Government styles desinged for teaching new people the BASICS, not the art of taiji. Bringing your feet together when stepping is a ridiculous and incorrect assertion to make on someone. Anyone who advocates it is NOT being honest, first, with themselves and second, with their students. God help the entire art...
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Re: Questions that need asking

Postby pete5770 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:28 pm

wpgtaiji wrote: Arguably, the majority of taiji today is of the silly Government styles desinged for teaching new people the BASICS, not the art of taiji. Bringing your feet together when stepping is a ridiculous and incorrect assertion to make on someone. Anyone who advocates it is NOT being honest, first, with themselves and second, with their students. God help the entire art...


We're talking about taking a step.
Have you gone off your meds? :wink: :wink:
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