You've all been waithing for this

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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:42 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:Why? Cheng manching was a fraud! LOL Ok, not quite, but close! He trained with Chenfu for a grand total of 6 months! Ever wonder why his form was short? It was all he learned! Much of his style, I see in your movement (which is totally flawed btw).

And actually, Fu wrote down what and WHY he did it! But all the rest presupposes that indeed, you are interested in actually learning taiji.


Why would you read something by a fraud? If you actually have?
In any case I guess we'll have to differ. I'm thinking he was a pretty talented man. I would think you would be a bit more appreciative of his style. It was new, different, forward thinking. Sort of like you claim your Erle to be. And besides, who knows how much a really talented man could learn, in 6 months, from a man like Chengfu? How much could you learn if you had nothing else to do but study with this man? :? :?
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:08 pm

I read his stuff when i was young and naive. I let it go, and so should you have, 37 years ago!

You literally need to start at the beginning from someone who knows taiji, and hasnt learned it from a book.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:48 am

wpgtaiji wrote:I read his stuff when i was young and naive. I let it go, and so should you have, 37 years ago!



I'm thinking someone(Erle) told you Chen Man Ching was a fraud, for the simple reason of making himself sound good, and you in your awe of the man, bought it. I doubt that you, on your own, have the capacity to determine, look into, or otherwise find out if, in fact, Chen Man Ching was as you or anyone claimed. Sad that you can't accept anything other than what one man has told you. A lot of peole out there who know a thing or two but I'm sure you'll never find that out.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:07 am

Does anyone want to tackle my "issue(s)" with Yang needle in the Sea bottom? I used to do it
while in a Ding Bu stance and it seemed that all I was doing was going down. However, after watching the following video I was struck by Master Yang Jun's passion, if you will(@ 6:50), for going forward, forward. So here I am giving it a shot, yet it doesn't feel quite right(maybe because it's differento me).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5xkPwbr ... ure=relmfu
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:44 am

pete5770 wrote:I'm thinking someone(Erle) told you Chen Man Ching was a fraud, for the simple reason of making himself sound good, and you in your awe of the man, bought it. I doubt that you, on your own, have the capacity to determine, look into, or otherwise find out if, in fact, Chen Man Ching was as you or anyone claimed. Sad that you can't accept anything other than what one man has told you. A lot of peole out there who know a thing or two but I'm sure you'll never find that out.

no mate. Look at cheng's movement! Why do people believe words over movement? Oh right! CUZ THEY CAN'T MOVE themselves! I also used to read Jou Tsung Hwa's book, Tao of Tai Chi Chuan, alot as well, until I actually saw him move. Like it or not, words dont mean much in the martial arts. IT is the movement that is what is important.

The problem with Needle at sea bottom (its actually fundamental problem you have through all the entire form), is that there is weight in the left leg. You may indeed have taken some weight out of the leg, but you are still double weighted (which is one of THE errors of taiji.. even Cheng wrote that). I also have no idea why you do brush knee then pick the left foot up to do it again... its as if you learned directly from a book. Mate, you have so many errors, right from the beginning, that it hurts my eyes. To make sure you understand, at the "finish" of needle, there is NO WEIGHT in the left foot (some even have the toes off the ground).

Dennis, your biggest flaw it seems, is you are trying to give every movement a real application. The Yang form isnt like that. YES, there are applications for every small tiny movement of the form (and most are lethal), but NEVER would anyone go into a fight and think they were going to use the application for Needle at sea bottom or brush knee! The form is to be done correct to get certain things to happen, but the fighting isnt part of it (in Yang style). The fighting part is done in other areas of training (for example, 2 man fighting set from YMAA, for example).

Good luck with your work man.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:37 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:no mate. Look at cheng's movement! Why do people believe words over movement? Oh right! CUZ THEY CAN'T MOVE themselves! I also used to read Jou Tsung Hwa's book, Tao of Tai Chi Chuan, alot as well, until I actually saw him move. Like it or not, words dont mean much in the martial arts. IT is the movement that is what is important.

The problem with Needle at sea bottom (its actually fundamental problem you have through all the entire form), is that there is weight in the left leg. You may indeed have taken some weight out of the leg, but you are still double weighted (which is one of THE errors of taiji.. even Cheng wrote that). I also have no idea why you do brush knee then pick the left foot up to do it again... its as if you learned directly from a book.



I'm curious as to why you slam people for the way they move yet I have seen your "moves" and other than the form being smaller, which I liked, I didn't see anything extraordinany in how you move. Not impressed would be putting it mildly.
As for my "needle" being double weighted. Yes, most definately. Being able to sink down fairly low on one leg(i.e. a one legged squat) and coming back up again is not something many people are capable of. The young seem better at it than oldies like myself. I fully intend to double weight until my right leg can perform as required for this move.
As for picking my foot up between brush knees. It's a carryover from when I used to actually repeat the step itself. Just haven't got it to stay down there yet. Mind of its own and still wants to move backward and repeat the step.
What's with the book learning seemingly getting put down? Just the other day you quoted me from Fu Zhon Wen's book on the subject of weighted vs unweighted turns?
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:48 pm

Dennis, the ONLY reason to do a video is to see the corrections YOU need to make. That is the reason I do them. I have hundreds done, but only 1 on YouTube because that was a moment in time, correct or not. Since that time, I have invested countless hours in working on corrections. Every time I do one, I see the spots where I can do things better. Putting up a video for laughs is not the reason to do it. Why? Well, for starters, EVERYTHING about your form is incorrect, according to what I know and understand about taiji (from the classics). EVERYTHING from the stance, to the weighting, to the extension of the limbs. ITs all wrong (and mate, double weighting is THE error! If you had learned from a good teacher, they wouldnt have let you progress past the posture until it was right. Remember, 40 years is a LONG time to have been doing it WRONG)! That you do it, that is your issue, not mine. That you feel it is OK to sub in different ways of doing postures, which indicates a total lack of respect for your teacher and the form you learned, is also something that strikes me. But again, it is your form! Maybe it was what you were taught. Maybe it is ALL you understand. It isnt up to me to correct you. I asked a specific question about a totally incorrect sequence.

To put up a video for laughs is sad. We already got that from your discussion on qigong!

btw, thanks for saying you weren't impressed. IT meant a LOT to read that part! It means that, indeed, i am moving in the direction that I need to be going (away from the flim flam artists)! After all, you hold Cheng in high regards.

Good luck mate.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:11 am

wpgtaiji wrote:Dennis, the ONLY reason to do a video is to see the corrections YOU need to make.

Well, for starters, EVERYTHING about your form is incorrect, according to what I know and understand about taiji (from the classics).

That you feel it is OK to sub in different ways of doing postures, which indicates a total lack of respect for your teacher and the form you learned, is also something that strikes me. But again, it is your form!

To put up a video for laughs is sad.

After all, you hold Cheng in high regards.


And I am getting tons of corrective input.

Oh c'mon, everything? I must have been at least close on ONE thing.

I think my last teacher would be proud of me for experimenting. It's the only way to improve things. How do you think Tai Chi has progessed to what it is today? Surely not because everyone kept doing the same old thing over and over. No, people have ideas on how to make things better. It's called progress.

What's wrong with a bit of laughter? Not that it's why I put them out there.

Why shouldn't I hold Cheng in high reguard? Seems like a man who was successful in life. For me to believe he was a bum simply because you say so is lunacy. Especially since I think you're only a recording of Erle and after watching a couple of interviews of his I haven't picked up on anything
that I thought was "profound". I think you're trying a bit too hard to be like him. Ease up, it's only life and none of us get out of it alive. :wink:
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:40 am

That is good that you are getting corrective input, but i didnt say that. I put "the ONLY reason to do a video is to see the corrections YOU need to make"! There is a world of difference. YOU must be able to look at your form and see where it needs improvement. Getting it from outsiders (especially on a forum where everyone does a different form) is the worst way to get it.

Good luck mate.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:31 am

wpgtaiji wrote:That is good that you are getting corrective input, but i didnt say that. I put "the ONLY reason to do a video is to see the corrections YOU need to make"! There is a world of difference. YOU must be able to look at your form and see where it needs improvement. Getting it from outsiders (especially on a forum where everyone does a different form) is the worst way to get it.

Good luck mate.


Oh yeah. Don't think for a minute that I'm not seeing flaws while watching. However I don't think other peoples input is to be ignored. While not everything that everyone says is correct, or even close at times, it all has some merit as it's peoples opinions, ideas on things, and how they think.
There are tons of info to be gleaned from people, whether it's in person, through a book, or online. I have no problem listening to what people say(well mostly). Do I believe it all? Oh h*ll no, but it's important to hear it.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:08 pm

Dennis, i have to wonder about what it is that you see in your form. Why? Because you claim 40 years experience. There are parts of the movement that violate ALL the rules of taiji (the classics), so that tells someone watching, that maybe, you arent aware of things. I rewatched my video today and I can certainly see why you weren't impressed! LOL It is too bad you missed the other video i linked to that thread! It was up for a few days, but I took it down as it was too "different" for most people to ever understand. Besides, I put the errors on the description and the thread, so, sure! I have yet to see anything by you saying "this is the list of errors I see...". instead, i read, "i have been working with a NEW way to do Needle", which indicates a total lack of understanding of the form. Especially, since you are double weighted. And you are correct. It is HARD to do it right! The entire form is supposed to be hard! That is how you get the exercise! Taiji may be done slow, but not easy. In fact, the slowness is part of HOW it becomes hard on the body (you should literally be standing on one leg for most of the form, though that leg changes).

mate, what I truly dont get from you is, you seem to have a love of taiji. Why not learn it correctly? It makes no sense to me to learn garbage and then try to make it better. learn the best and then strive to make that better in your form! That way, you will always improve, vs what you have been doing for so long. Learning an inferior form and adding to it does not make it better. You need to correct the foundation of the form.

Dennis, I have had about as much as I can take of this! I am deliberately editing out too many corrections, as it isnt my place. Good luck...
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:56 pm

wpgtaiji wrote: I have yet to see anything by you saying "this is the list of errors I see...".

mate, what I truly dont get from you is, you seem to have a love of taiji. Why not learn it correctly?


I think I listed some things that I noticed on page 1.

What makes you think I'm not trying to learn it correctly(whatever that is)? Or put another way. I do Tai Chi because I like what it gives me. Pretty good exercise, I can take it with me wherever I go, there is a certain challenge to it, it interests me, I find the people involved in it EXTREMELY diverse and "interesting"(if you get my drift). Do I do Tai Chi to prefect it? Oh no, I'm not quite that anal and that's impossible for anyone.
On a different note my last instructor advised me to steer clear of people claiming that their Tai Chi was the best and that they knew for certain what was wrong with mine. So you'll have to pardon me if it seems I'm not listening to what you say. I am but don't buy into much of it. I think you are an intersting person but your boasting, if you will, of your Tai Chi prowess reminds me of the old quote "He who speaks does not know. He who knows does not speak". Loosely translated that means lighten up a bit. Are we only on here to debate whether
the placing and or weighting of a foot incorrectly is the end of the world?
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:11 pm

mate, you are totally confused! What I have refered to is not style specific. IT is from the CLASSICS of taiji. That this is lost on you is what i figured. You also claim that you do taiji for exercise, but that isnt true either! How can I tell? Because for every opportunity that is given to choose the "easy" way or the "correct/hard" way, you choose the easy way. EVERY TIME! And the hard part is, you probably have no idea what I am refering too in that... oh well. You dont have to listen mate. You are set to listen to your "teacher" and that is fine. But if you were honest, why are you changing what your teacher taught you? Adding that rubbish up front, needle, the brush knee thing... You obviously have your doubts about what he taught you, yet you hide behind it.

Find the classics mate. See what I mean (oh wait... that won't work). I have no idea how to help such an ego. And the funny thing is, you say everyone else has the ego!
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:22 pm

wpgtaiji wrote: You are set to listen to your "teacher" and that is fine. But if you were honest, why are you changing what your teacher taught you?


I don't think my teacher would mind my changing and or adding a thing or two. He always told
us find YOUR Tai Chi. As far as I'm concerned he was right on the money. It would appear that, over the centuries, many, many people have found their Tai Chi, as evidenced, by the many styles and forms out there. You seem to put forth that only what you know is of any value. OK for you, but others may not be so sure of the ideals you put forth. You can argue with them for the rest of time but most will not bend to your will.
But we are off topic a bit. Why don't you post a video of yourself and we'll discuss it? For that how about anyone posting something up. It can be brutal but you'll survive and possibly pick up a few things to help out your Tai Chi. Everyone has something to offer.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:00 pm

See, now im confused as i thought i did post one! Which is why/how you got yours up! Lol. You forgot? Or do you want more? Because i like your spirit, this is one from a few months ago. Some have seen it, but literally, it is playing around. I was answering a question for a friend on being loose, and i did the form this way. And yes, i got my corrections alteady from people i respect so anythoughts you have will mean little. No offence. I just wonder if you would even recognize it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjTvXBKt ... ata_player by the way, the last "punch", called fist under elbow, is done as 2. Yes they are both there.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:13 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:See, now im confused as i thought i did post one! Which is why/how you got yours up! Lol. You forgot? Or do you want more? Because i like your spirit, this is one from a few months ago. Some have seen it, but literally, it is playing around. I was answering a question for a friend on being loose, and i did the form this way. And yes, i got my corrections alteady from people i respect so anythoughts you have will mean little. No offence. I just wonder if you would even recognize it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjTvXBKt ... ata_player by the way, the last "punch", called fist under elbow, is done as 2. Yes they are both there.


I'll respect your wishes for no comments from me, but I did enjoy the fireworks.
I do remember your first video, which sort of gave me the impetus to put mine up and encourage others to do the same. So what if people don't like it or disagree or think it sucks or don't understand. Three quarters of the world doesn't follow Tai Chi at all, much less care about it.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:01 pm

wpgtaiji wrote: Why do people believe words over movement? Oh right! CUZ THEY CAN'T MOVE themselves! I also used to read Jou Tsung Hwa's book, Tao of Tai Chi Chuan, alot as well, until I actually saw him move. Like it or not, words dont mean much in the martial arts. IT is the movement that is what is important.


wpgtaiji wrote:Find the classics mate. See what I mean



Just a clairification if you will. In your first quote you talk about how words don't mean much. In the second one you encourage me to "Find the classics...". As near as I can tell "the classics" are pretty much in written form, as oppossed to video, and all the old classic masters are dead.
So read - not read? Do you see where I'm going with this? :? :?
And anyway how do you know that what was written long ago is any more or less right or wrong than something written recently?
I don't have a problem with the classics. Would love to have a Model T Ford and the Wright Brothers Airplane in my own little museum but I sure wouldn't want to take a cross county trip on either. What I'm trying to say is that things progress and get better and this includes Tai Chi.
Tai Chi today is looked at, analyzed, gone over, thought about, debated, practiced, etc. by millions more people than "way back when - in the classics era". I know that, today, we are where we are because we stand on the old masters shoulders, but I also know that out of that "millions more..." a few will rise to the top and take Tai Chi to a new level. It's the way things work. Were mistakes made "back then"? Of course, they were human. Are mistakes being made now? Absolutely. There are even more being made and sifting through them to find the good stuff is really tough. Whoa, enough of the rant "pete". sorry.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:11 pm

Dennis, there is a difference between learning the form from a book and reading the classics.

The reason I say your teacher learned from a book is that the transitions between postures are absent or totally incorrect. I understand that there is an element to "correctness", based on style, etc, which is why i told you repeatedly to READ THE CLASSICS!

I realize that that, however, is also a waste of time, as the classics require that, first, you are learning a correct form (double weighting errors dont exist, etc). The classics were written by masters to help an intermediate POSSIBLY get to the advanced stages. They refer to specific happenings that the masters put to words. The LONG way to do it, is to work with a correct form and, through blood, sweat and tears, the form will start to show you (yes, it does happen, and has happened to me and the senior students that i have talked with). What I mean is, when the energy flows are correct because the movements are in the correct places, the "flow" moves your body into the correct path for you. The classics are guideposts to help the intermediate student to get the body right.

What I was telling you is, while the movement you do doesnt hold to the style I was taught (the physical sequence, etc), also, none of the classics are held up either. That means that, while you may have learned a form that was, at one time, tai chi, what you are doing now has no internal nor external connection to it. It isnt my judgement. IT is looking at the classics to see what you dont have.

Places to start:
1) yin and yang in every posture
2) double weighting after Preparation (actually, from the rising poing, but that is too much at this point) is a serious error
3) the feet in your stances point haphazardly (not technically a taiji classic, but part of the foundations of martial arts)
4) you break balanced pairs at almost every chance, which means that there is no internal balance, thus no balance at all
5) adding your own interpretations means that you were never shown WHY the postures were designed the way they were. This means you need adequate instruction in the applications (the traditional ones) for the postures. Understand, these applications are NOT fighting techniques (though they may look like them). They are there to instruct in the CORRECT way to move the body to get the energy to flow correctly.
6) the kwa is very important, and your structure (vertically) is incorrect. In my video, i have a slight lean, which i got chewed out for. Your video shows a slight BACKWARDS lean at times, which is what a beginner does to correct certain things (mainly a feeling of falling forward).
7) by following the China government, and YINNING your lead foot at every step, you are not learning anything about taiji. It is my belief, that that movement was created by the chinese government in the 40's, when the peking 24 was developed, to make people think they were following the classics of being YIn before Yang, but it has caused people to totally misunderstand the idea, and it doesnt work the body at all, like stepping with a weighted front leg (like Fu Zhon Wen wrote about) does.
8) when you "kick", the standing leg must be DEAD STRAIGHT! It is common to see that leg with a bend in it because it makes things easy. But, since your motivation is health, doing it half way is akin to not doing it at all.

It is funny that you mentioned Needle at Sea Bottom. While I have not seen the documents (nor have many that i know), in 1995, Erle aquired a copy of what he believes, was the original Chang San Feng treatise. In that document, it says that you must keep the torso PLUMB! It says it dozens of times. Erle took a look at the form he was doing and noticed that there were spots where the torso leaned. By taking that classic, he found that the health value of the form increased greatly (this is in his DVD's somewhere). That is modifying WITH understanding, and it wasnt taking someone else' needle at sea bottom! That posture involved a great lean forward, but by doing it with a vertical back, we find the health value greatly increase.

mate, there are so many little tweaks that need to be done, the list can go on and on. I find it funny that your teacher didnt show you (because he had no clue) how to make the form you learned into a MORE healthful form. The funny thing is, doing it for more health, by necessity, also makes it much more martial! That is the great thing about the Yang style. Not the Yang that 99% do. But there are a few who are starting to see it.

I say, with all honesty, that you should start at the beginning, from scratch, with a good instructor or, at least a complete DVD (Erle's Chenfu is FREE on YouTube - his basic form with many advancements). BY doing this, you will be learning a solid form, that, with the work you have done, will start to move you correctly. It will teach you. You seem to think that I ONLY know about Erle, but that is not true! I only refer to Erle here because some people here like to discuss/argue points, and he caused that in people! By using his name, I get to see where people are and who understands things. Many people misunderstand what he taught! MANY MANY PEOPLE! But it is funny that, those who took the time to actually see what he was doing dont.

Good luck mate. Your passion for taiji is admirable. I only hope that one day, you listen to what I was trying to say here and actually start on a path that can have a chance to give back to you.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:21 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
Places to start:
3) the feet in your stances point haphazardly (not technically a taiji classic, but part of the foundations of martial arts)
5) adding your own interpretations means that you were never shown WHY the postures were designed the way they were.
6) Your video shows a slight BACKWARDS lean at times, which is what a beginner does to correct certain things (mainly a feeling of falling forward).
8) when you "kick", the standing leg must be DEAD STRAIGHT!

It is funny that you mentioned Needle at Sea Bottom. While I have not seen the documents (nor have many that i know), in 1995, Erle aquired a copy of what he believes, was the original Chang San Feng treatise. In that document, it says that you must keep the torso PLUMB! It says it dozens of times. ...........That posture involved a great lean forward, but by doing it with a vertical back, we find the health value greatly increase.

mate, there are so many little tweaks that need to be done, the list can go on and on.


A few comments on your comments.

3.)I have always been very fussy about my foot placement with respect to gong bu. I did notice that it looked a little weird in the video but I believe the wide angle of the lens distorts the appearance.
5.)When I refer to postures of my own this is not strictly true. I'm refering to postures I've learned from teachers I respect. I don't invent postures.
6.) Don't we all lean a litle bit? Wrong? Sure.
8.) I disagree.

I used to do "needle" with a plumb torso but as I stated earlier I was impressed by Master Yang Jun's passion for "forward, forward". See his video that I refer to in a previous post.

Tweaks? Well,at last we agree on something. There is hope for the world yet.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:20 am

pete5770 wrote:A few comments on your comments.

3.)I have always been very fussy about my foot placement with respect to gong bu. I did notice that it looked a little weird in the video but I believe the wide angle of the lens distorts the appearance.
5.)When I refer to postures of my own this is not strictly true. I'm refering to postures I've learned from teachers I respect. I don't invent postures.
6.) Don't we all lean a litle bit? Wrong? Sure.
8.) I disagree.

I used to do "needle" with a plumb torso but as I stated earlier I was impressed by Master Yang Jun's passion for "forward, forward". See his video that I refer to in a previous post.

Tweaks? Well,at last we agree on something. There is hope for the world yet.


Your foot placement has nothing to do with the camera. It is off. It is off regardless of what direction and which leg you step with. You are doing it the way Cheng taught, and you are loosing so much energy generation because of it.

It doesnt matter if you learn from another teacher, you do not add to the the way they taught to the form. You are doing it without understanding, which is wrong. Now, what you have is an incorrect movement into a sequence that is incorrect. 2 incorrects does not make it correct.

I really dont care that you disagree. Your idea is to work on the form for HEALTH, and keeping that leg bent while kicking is lessening that. It is such a small, tiny thing that has an enormous impact on HOW the form is done. Earle Nightgale, the legendary expert on how to succeed at any endeavour, when asked about success, said simply "Watch and see what everyone else is doing, then do the exact opposite." Since you are copying what the mass does, you must be....

Sure, there is a lean, but again, it isnt correct. Your stated objective is to be healthy, yet, like i said before, at every opportunity, you choose to make things easy on yourself. That tells me that you aren't serious about your objective. Taking out the lean is hard work because it means that now, you have to move from your core, your hips.

You can argue all you like, it doesnt change that these errors are in your performance, and they are all incorrect from a taiji perspective. Just because you dont like the news, does not mean the news is wrong. Oh wait! You are one of those people who turn on your TV at 6pm to watch the news, then you yell at the reporters, "NO, it isnt that way! You are a liar"! I forgot who i was talking too. My bad.

Good luck.
wpgtaiji
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