heel pivot: weight bearing or not

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heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby fazhou » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:04 pm

Sorry if this topic has been covered before. I tried to search the forum but to no avail. Does anyone care to share their opinion on whether foot turning/heel pivot should be done on a weighted leg or unweighted leg? Are there different points of view on this subject depending on whether or not the practice is health based or martial based? Any two cents will happily go into the bank. thanks.
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby Josh Young » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:37 pm

I was taught to do the turns and pivots weighted, but also learned the method of doing them unweighted.

It is thought by some that weight bearing turns are more likely to cause knee injury, especially in those who are not conditioned, including the elderly. This can be a legitimate concern, if the person tries to do the weight bearing turn and doesnt have the right structure then the knee can move out of alignment with the toes during a moment of high stress and injury can and has resulted.

One concern that has been raised with turning without weight is that the move telegraphs when and where you are about to put your weight. However there are legit martial applications for turning the foot before weight arrives, including some nifty bumping moves and foot traps.

The weight bearing pivot is a key part of many moves and is not totally absent from forms where it has been taken out of specific motions.

In my experience it is not as big a deal as it is often made out to be.

There are good reasons to do it both ways, much as is also the case with keeping the back vertical or aligning it with the rear leg in say, brush knee twist step.

Most of the elderly people I know turn the foot first and then have the weight arrives, most of the younger and more martial people I do the weight bearing turns. Some of those I know just do what they were taught, I have seen good martial artists do it both ways.
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby pete5770 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:49 am

Josh Young wrote:
Most of the elderly people I know turn the foot first and then have the weight arrives, most of the younger and more martial people I do the weight bearing turns. Some of those I know just do what they were taught, I have seen good martial artists do it both ways.


Does 63 qualify me as elderly yet? I sure hope so. I recall from my very limited Wu style
foray, some years back, that weighted turns are, in fact, difficult at first. However, after some practice they do tend to become second nature and "easier".
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby brer_momonga » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:08 pm

I agree with Josh that it's not a big deal. Both can work - it just employs a different technique. horray for bumping and foot traps!

Training the weight bearing heel pivot is beneficial for balance and it helps it become - as pete wrote - second nature. Heel pivoting crept into my normal walking.

You may already know this, but if you decide to train pivoting with the weight on the pivoting foot it is important that the weight be on the heel and not equally distributed over a flat foot (this habit puts unnecessary strain on the knee).
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby caesar » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:28 pm

Heel pivoting crept into my normal walking.


How? You mean while doing normal walking, when you suddenly need to turn?
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby brer_momonga » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:09 am

yeup, mostly for making sharp turns in hallways, staircases, getting out of people's way, etc - also useful when I'm standing in a public transit vehicle (abrupt stops and turns) and I need to quickly change my position for balance. I employ more techniques from Tai Chi than the heel pivot to stay standing straight - but the heel pivot definitely comes in handy!

I spend many hours of my life sitting in an office watching everyone around me get fatter and fatter - so I try to find ways to practice little pieces of the postures all day.
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby caesar » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:12 am

Nice!

I love the moments when practice, without intention, shows benefits in simple, normal, everyday situations like you just described.
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby yeniseri » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:39 pm

The pivoting heel is not weight bearing but there is a simultaneous yao/waist complex turn/shifting and corresponding body inclination to turn area for lack of a better explanation on my part. It seems that as long as people are comfortable within their manner of teaching all is well as long as there is no damage to knees.

I have seen that those exposed to wushu instruction tend to overdo the pivoting as opposed to just make the appropriate move to employ the equivalent of shoulder 'strike'.
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby Monsoon » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:45 pm

This is something I have never really got my head around either. If you stand in a rooster position (for the purpose of this demonstration!) and then attempt to turn the hips slowly (direction may or may not be significant) the rooted foot will not turn until the torque in the standing leg exceeds the friction between the foot and the ground. That's if I understand the physics properly - which cannot be guaranteed!

An option would be to forcibly raise the front part of the standing foot as you turn, but that would probably be quite unstable.

I tend toward the notion that the weighting is fleeting and that the whole turn represents a transition of weight through a point and kind of falling senseation at the end of the turn.

Now, would one of you erudite gentlemen please put me out of my misery and tell me how to perform an entirely heel weighted one legged turn slowly without twisting my foot off?

I await illumination!

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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby Josh Young » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:02 pm

Erudite, good word... I wish i fell under that category.

I can say that the heel turns that are weighted do require that you wear the right footwear, and maintain the right connection, or you can damage your knee.

For me it is like you root through the foot, but the ball is not part of how you root and so it is like you are turning on a bearing (of the heel, sort of the front of the heel)

I regret that talking about this online is of no help to me, I can't really express this well or demonstrate with a video. I will say that the spin in the section pertaining to the lotus kick really helped me develop this, but when I began this was incredibly hard and I did it totally improperly.
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby Monsoon » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:45 am

Cheers Josh,

But...

I can say that the heel turns that are weighted do require that you wear the right footwear, and maintain the right connection, or you can damage your knee.


...doesn't this kind of imply that one cannot simply practice in whatever one is wearing at the time?

edit: I just tried it in socks on carpet. That worked, but probably because the sock moves at a different rate to the foot - guessing here!

Oh well, back to practising more, and more...

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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby Josh Young » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:13 am

...doesn't this kind of imply that one cannot simply practice in whatever one is wearing at the time
?

Yes.

Not all footwear works for it, heels are typically not good for it. My teacher insists upon flat soled shoes and loose fitting clothing for example.

Some styles of taiji change this, they don't do the pivoting, ChengManChings style for example does not do weighted turns or pivoting, you could do those methods in pretty much any shoe. I learned both ways but love the weighted turns and use them all the time in daily lift. It is fun to be able to spin around in a full circle on the heel while keeping a strong root. Sometimes I can spin around in place 2-3 times before I lose my center!

I like barefoot taiji a lot. I used to take my shoes off to practice.
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby Monsoon » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:23 pm

Sometimes I can spin around in place 2-3 times before I lose my center!


:lol: Can imagine you doing that down at the mall!

I noticed that Dr Yang, Jwing-ming advocates the use of weighted heel turning, and yet... Yang Jun from the Yang Family Association teaches the turn in 'repulse the naughty monkey' as a step back with the (now forward) foot turning only after the the step is rooted. Mind you, Jun's hand position is different too, perhaps simply reflecting different applications?

I am not attempting to promote an argument of who is right and who is wrong here, but is it worth trying to perfect both methods, or should one simply choose the method that feels most comfortable? I realise that sounds a bit like a cop out but I am quite happy to persist in heel turning for good long trial period if necessary.

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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby brer_momonga » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Monsoon wrote: Yang Jun from the Yang Family Association teaches the turn in 'repulse the naughty monkey' as a step back with the (now forward) foot turning only after the the step is rooted. Mind you, Jun's hand position is different too, perhaps simply reflecting different applications?


Monsoon


here is a Yang Jun weight bearing heel pivot. see 2:40 after second separation kick for the first heel kick. the "safety stop" toe he uses is optional.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9X8GNMT0Qg

odd to see this popular form now, though I studied it. practicing a traditional yang now.
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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby Monsoon » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:47 pm

Good video! However, that's my point right there. Master Yang Jun is spinning on his heel, 180 degress at speed, and I can understand and appreciate that - although I cannot do it quite so smoothly :D

In Dr Yang's YMAA DVD on traditional yang style he uses a similar turn in 'repulse the naughty monkey' despite the fact that the pivoting foot only needs to turn around 45 degrees. Yang Jun does not spin on this move. Hence the confusion on my part. I assumed that the way that Dr Yang performed this movement was influenced by his White Crane stuff, perhaps in my error.

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Re: heel pivot: weight bearing or not

Postby Josh Young » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:14 pm

I think you might be right about the white crane influence in Dr. Yangs Taijiquan work.

On that note I should add that his White Crane Qigong book has been a very good resource for me in terms of my own taijiquan.
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