Guiding principle

[wpgtaiji]

There are a few secrets still out there in various groups, it varies of course, I know one instructor who reserves specific techniques and attacks in terms of drills and instructions, he teaches them only to upper level students, and is a WTBA instructor.

yeah, i found that weird as well. Your buddy was talking to me one time and he told me he was just learning one form from his teacher, after 5 years or something. Eli is teaching that stuff NOW to folks (and Erle taught it years ago (aournd 1994) and had it out on video). The material was some of the first that I learned, so it was bizarre to me. All I can say is, there are people in EVERY system that want to make more out of things than what was intended.

That said, there are some teachers that INSIST on making sure the student has the basics down cold (which is just good martial arts, in my opinion). And the other side of the coin is, MOST people think they are better than they are (myself included), so, while I may think that I am ready for such and such, talking to my senior, it may be that i am not, in fact, ready for it... that i do not have the foundations for that method yet, which means that i will be wasting my time.

One of the hardest things to understand (and I was just chatting with a guy that ran into this issue, who learned parts of the information from Erle, but bought DVDs to learn more) is that you have to start at the beginning! It is VERY common for folks who purchase WTBA materials, buy the advanced stuff and start there with no foundation. Some go on to teach, and cannot figure out why they arent getting the progress.

All that said, are there secrets? NO! And YES! If you watch full DVD's of Erle's stuff (not youtube clips) you start to see that he put things out there. He even went so far as to repeat himself over and over on the more important principles, yet, few of the people present or watching the DVD's were ready for that information. I, myself, had watched one DVD for nearly 9 years, and am shocked at how much he continues to sneak on to the DVD. A lot of it is the understanding of the individual, and as you know more, more makes sense.

I have thought some on what i put previous, and in a way, I have to refine my answer. To tell a new student that "THIS IS A CLASSIC" will cause tremendous confusion. However, telling that same student to (and it must be demonstrated) gently tuck their chin in AND SHOW THAT and CORRECT THEM, accomplishes the exact same thing, yet leaves none of the confusion. So, in other words, making the classics understandable in the body knowledge (to borrow from Park Bak Nom), is more important than the actual classic, because now they can use it without thinking on it. Hope that helps.

[pete5770]

There are a few secrets still out there in various groups,

But I think you are right, Dennis, about taijiquan secrets in general.

Some years back the organizers of Toledo's(where I live) World Tai Chi Day asked me if I would visit the local Taoist Tai Chi Society and ask them if they would like to give a demonstration of their form, along with 4 or 5 other groups who would perform theirs. I was told this was not possible because their "leader / master", someone in Toronto, did not approve of their showing "secrets" to other groups and instructors. I pressed by saying we weren't really interested in "secrets", just a brief display of their form to show people who attend. Nope, couldn't be done. So they are "out there" and so are their "secrets", whatever they are.

In any case I have never met anyone associated with Tai Chi who would not answer a question I asked, if they knew the answer.

[pete5770]

....... and as you know more, more makes sense.

Couldn't agree more. Only thing is the more I know, the more questions I have. Sort of a "The more I know - the less I know" type of thing. My curiousity for just about everything in life seems to know no bounds. And there ain't no cure for curiousity.

[wpgtaiji]

Some years back the organizers of Toledo's(where I live) World Tai Chi Day asked me if I would visit the local Taoist Tai Chi Society and ask them if they would like to give a demonstration of their form, along with 4 or 5 other groups who would perform theirs. I was told this was not possible because their "leader / master", someone in Toronto, did not approve of their showing "secrets" to other groups and instructors. I pressed by saying we weren't really interested in "secrets", just a brief display of their form to show people who attend. Nope, couldn't be done. So they are "out there" and so are their "secrets", whatever they are.

In any case I have never met anyone associated with Tai Chi who would not answer a question I asked, if they knew the answer.

Sounds like the Taoist people! How people can claim to be taoist, but misinterpret the word Taoist so blatantly is beyond me! I had a chat with a few folks from Taoist tai chi on YouTube.. what a bunch of crazies! No secrets, just bullchit of the highest order!

holy cuspids.. Dennis and i agreeing.. what is going wrong in this world? It must be Josh's calming influence!

[pete5770]

Some years back the organizers of Toledo's(where I live) World Tai Chi Day asked me if I would visit the local Taoist Tai Chi Society and ask them if they would like to give a demonstration of their form, along with 4 or 5 other groups who would perform theirs. I was told this was not possible because their "leader / master", someone in Toronto, did not approve of their showing "secrets" to other groups and instructors. I pressed by saying we weren't really interested in "secrets", just a brief display of their form to show people who attend. Nope, couldn't be done. So they are "out there" and so are their "secrets", whatever they are.

In any case I have never met anyone associated with Tai Chi who would not answer a question I asked, if they knew the answer.

Sounds like the Taoist people! How people can claim to be taoist, but misinterpret the word Taoist so blatantly is beyond me! I had a chat with a few folks from Taoist tai chi on YouTube.. what a bunch of crazies! No secrets, just bullchit of the highest order!

holy cuspids.. Dennis and i agreeing.. what is going wrong in this world? It must be Josh's calming influence!

I don't think it's "Josh's calming influence". More like the end of the world.

[wpgtaiji]

I don't think it's "Josh's calming influence". More like the end of the world.

That's actually what i meant! It is the same thing

[Inga]

I think perhaps they are demonstrating some ‘secrets’, from the ‘classics’ :

“Tolerance implies a respect for another person, not because he is wrong or even because he is right, but because he is human.”

John Cogley Commonweal

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

Voltaire

“To conquer oneself is a greater victory than to conquer thousands in a battle.”

Dalai Lama

[Inga]

ps

For me Dennis the guiding principle in my taijichuan training, as well as my shaolin, is practice, practice, practice. Not to sound too simplistic, but, in a way, I suppose it is. As I train, listen to senior students, read, watch DVDs, talk to other students, attend seminars, I learn. As I learn, I grow. And then when I practice more, I start to see things for myself in my form. I start to feel. I admit I also think a good school/instructor is important. And who we trust seems to have been the source of much debate between some forum members. Healthy debate is fine. Pointing our your successes, examining failures, conveying your beliefs, that is welcome. I don't have a problem with challenging someone's POV, if it is done respectfully. If we have strong faith, it should be easy to explain our reasons for supporting and following someone. And those reasons might come as fresh information to the challenger and be interesting. We all practice martial arts to the best of our ability, I would imagine, and we all hope to improve. In that, we share a common goal, and that is why this forum is here, as a platform to share.

[pete5770]

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
Voltaire

I'm with Voltaire all the way.

[pete5770]

For me Dennis the guiding principle in my taijichuan training, as well as my shaolin, is practice, practice, practice.

Just Like the old question "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" Practice, practice, practice.

[wpgtaiji]

For me Dennis the guiding principle in my taijichuan training, as well as my shaolin, is practice, practice, practice.

There is a problem with THIS as a guiding principle! Can you see it? ITs right there! Ok...

So many people invest practice practice on the wrong things. In taiji, they do that by doing the wrong work. They focus on all the external aspects, which never leads anywhere. Practise practise GOOD taiji!

[pete5770]

Practise practise GOOD taiji!

Just the words "GOOD taiji" could open a huge can of worms or worse be sort of like kicking a hornets nest. I'm reminded that in man's search for the ultimate truth there have never been truer words spoken than "There's more than one way to skin a cat." Mark Twain is generally
credited with that version of the saying.

As a sidebar to that Twain was referring to a catfish. Often shortened to simply cat in the southern U.S.

[wpgtaiji]

Practise practise GOOD taiji!

Just the words "GOOD taiji" could open a huge can of worms or worse be sort of like kicking a hornets nest.

Seriously, do you think I care about kickin the hornets nest? Any monkey can and does teach taiji without understanding much if anything about what it is they are doing, and this is "good"? The results speak for themselves. While Erle is most generally disparaged on forums by those who never met him, the fact is, his students, the product of his efforts, is far superior to the majority of taiji people, both in understanding and ability. Now, there are exceptions to this, and there are differing levels of understanding, even with the term "instructor", which makes things hard to judge. What is even more difficult is that beginners have no comprehension of what taiji is supposed to look like!

I have a good friend who was asked to teach a taiji class at a centre where he worked. He obliged and started to teach. After the first class, the students objected and the owner clarified that they wanted a "follow me" type of class, like yoga! Can you imagine trying to learn taiji without explaination? WOW! And people wonder why i say that taiji is at its all time low!

btw, one guiding principle i hold to (or try too), is to keep my centre. For most, they have their ideas on this, and focus on the dan tien. But there are other aspects to it that make it easy to see in application and also to see if someone is doing it or not.

Also, good taiji is a form that will help you get it right, if that makes sense. The idea is, when you start doing taiji, the meridian system is blocked (due to tension, etc). As we go about loosening it with correct movement, the qi starts to flow. After some time, our body moves in harmony with the qi (which is at the heart of the art), and soon, you can't make an error, because your body can only do the postures YOUR way. Most people try to fake this (you talk to them and they talk about learning this bit from here and that bit from there), but it is very real.

Besides, the whole thing is very simple. There are literally only a handful of things that can be done with the body. Why makes things complicated?

[pete5770]

Practise practise GOOD taiji!

Just the words "GOOD taiji" could open a huge can of worms or worse be sort of like kicking a hornets nest.

Seriously, do you think I care about kickin the hornets nest?

..... more difficult is that beginners have no comprehension of what taiji is supposed to look like!

I have a good friend who was asked to teach a taiji class at a centre where he worked. He obliged and started to teach. After the first class, the students objected and the owner clarified that they wanted a "follow me" type of class, like yoga! Can you imagine trying to learn taiji without explaination? WOW! And people wonder why i say that taiji is at its all time low!

Besides, the whole thing is very simple. There are literally only a handful of things that can be done with the body. Why makes things complicated?

I sure wouldn't call kicking a hornets nest a bright idea or something that would make your immediate situation bright and rosie, but I'm only speaking metaphorically. Usually, on forums, statements like "this is the way to do Tai Chi" instead of "this is the way I do Tai Chi" usually opens that "can of worms". Sort of a "more than one way to skin a cat(fish)" type of thing.

I don't find it strange that people engaging in a new activity have little "comprehension" of what they are doing. Not sure that's what you meant though.

I think that in learning anything you are required to follow along. You watch, pay attention, and do what the teacher / instructor tells you. I'll agree that simply following along is only part of the process. You also have to learn the why's and wherefore's and that requires questioning.

I'll also cast a vote for simple. It's just human nature to find the easiest and simplist way to accomplish any task. Sometimes things do get complicated but if you work at it enough even the
most difficult concepts becomes easier.

[wpgtaiji]

..... more difficult is that beginners have no comprehension of what taiji is supposed to look like!

I don't find it strange that people engaging in a new activity have little "comprehension" of what they are doing. Not sure that's what you meant though.

I think that in learning anything you are required to follow along. You watch, pay attention, and do what the teacher / instructor tells you. I'll agree that simply following along is only part of the process. You also have to learn the why's and wherefore's and that requires questioning.

by cutting and pasting comments, without understanding what you are reading, you confuse yourself. Here is another way: How is a beginner who hasnt ever done taiji before supposed to understand what is good, when even instructors and those with 10+ years experience have no clue? Hope that clears it up.

As to the follow along bit, mate, it only shows how little you realize, and closely you dont read. The students wanted a strictly follow me class, like a yoga class. However, learning good taiji requires instruction parts! That said, there are "follow me" type of instruction you can do (Erle put out a series of DVD's on how he approached this method and the whys of it all). However, even the follow me method requires explainations! So, to a new beginner, simply follow me is a waste of your time and the students time. While both ways are indeed beneficial, it takes a very special student to learn ONLY by follow me methods (and there are very very few of those... maybe 1/1000000).

[Josh Young]

The results speak for themselves. While Erle is most generally disparaged on forums by those who never met him, the fact is, his students, the product of his efforts, is far superior to the majority of taiji people, both in understanding and ability.

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but this is not in general how outsiders view Erle or the WTBA. I am unsure what standards and tests are being applied to say that his students are superior in skill or understanding, but I am aware that the opposite opinion is maintained about the group by a large number of people.

I have a good friend who was asked to teach a taiji class at a centre where he worked. He obliged and started to teach. After the first class, the students objected and the owner clarified that they wanted a "follow me" type of class, like yoga! Can you imagine trying to learn taiji without explaination? WOW! And people wonder why i say that taiji is at its all time low!

Almost I know thinks Taiji is at an all time low, quite the opposite. Moreover it is better to learn Taiji without explaintion, taijiquan is hands on, the theory and philosophy are nothing compared to the real practice. The idea you can learn it from books and video is something viewed by many as silly, despite those being good tools.

Also in some classes students who do not speak the same language as the teacher are reported to d better, because the explanation does not get in the way. The hands on approach is vastly superior to knowing in detail all of the so called explanations and understanding.

I would like to point out that Erles explanations also differ from conventional ones, for this reason people like Gord say that others are wrong, but most of those others view the WBTA teachings as wrong. It becomes a childish argument about styles and forms...

Now it is true that my opinion is that Gords understanding of Taiji is questionable, but I am sure that he feels that way about me. I would like to point out he is not a spokesperson for the WTBA and that his opinions and teachings do not reflect those of the WTBA in genera, so his opinions are his and you can find other opinions from other members of the WTBA, which is a diverse organization. It is not well represented here, by Gord, who is not particularly recognized in the group for his physical skill or understanding, but who is known to be controversial and opinionated even in the group itself.

I often wish a high level WTBA person would share here, instead of Gord only.

[wpgtaiji]

Now it is true that my opinion is that Gords understanding of Taiji is questionable, but I am sure that he feels that way about me. I would like to point out he is not a spokesperson for the WTBA and that his opinions and teachings do not reflect those of the WTBA in genera, so his opinions are his and you can find other opinions from other members of the WTBA, which is a diverse organization. It is not well represented here, by Gord, who is not particularly recognized in the group for his physical skill or understanding, but who is known to be controversial and opinionated even in the group itself.

I often wish a high level WTBA person would share here, instead of Gord only.

Thanks for letting me know this Josh! I had no idea i was controversial! Unknown for skill? most certainly. Understanding of the material? i dont know. I just go by my teacher's and my senior's input on that.

As to the last bit, i didnt want to post here for long. I originally started to give a person another option vs the only option that was presented. Josh started up mud slinging, so i stuck around (though, he will claim it was i, but i have yet to actually start a new thread on this forum) so i stuck and sort of got stuck! LOL

Now, that said, I have never once claimed that i was, in any way, the representative or a representative for WTBA. I only shared what I learned, which comes from Erle and some of his senior instructors.

And Josh is correct. Erle's views on taiji were NOT the norm. Many found them to be controversial VERSUS WHAT THEY LEARNED. The problem is, when you look at it in a whole (form, methods, weapons, qigong, healing, etc) it becomes clear that what is being taught is very complete in and of itself. And, while most of the silliness comes from within Tai chi groups, when you start to look at other "recognized" lineages of internal arts, undeniable similarities start to pop up. Now, they are not obvious (like what Josh was looking for in another thread where i gave him the fingers pointing (which, btw, i didnt have when i started out)), so most will never see them. That is ok. And NO Josh, i will not take the time to break all of this down. Why? One, you are not a student of mine, so i have no vested interest in your understanding of it. two, it is way too much work for a forum. 3) It isnt mine to give. 4) and i dont know nor do i care to have all the answers.

What this thread has made clear however, is how little people actually look at what they are being taught. Josh and I "argue" because, i think, we are very much alike in some ways. Its too bad we met this way! LOL

And last, Josh, you expressed a desire that you wanted to hear my words, not Erles'. Well, the problem there is, you only asked one time. Every other time it was an attack at me, Erle, or the WTBA, which is bizarre, as you apparently train with a WTBA instructor. What a shame this whole thing has been.

[pete5770]

The hands on approach is vastly superior to knowing in detail all of the so called explanations and understanding.

I'm going to have to completely disagree with you on this. The old saying of "God(or the Devil)
is in the details" is another one of the great truths in life. It's the difference between having a monkey repair your car or a mechanic with 40 years experience. The monkey doesn't have a clue what that bolt does, and he's what you might call a "hands on" learner. Very few, if any, things in this world are of good quality, durable, well built, dependable, and long lasting if attention to detail is missing or absent. In Tai Chi you must know the details and the why's and what fors.

[Josh Young]

I didnt sling mud at all. I did and do question the historical accounts of Erle where he gives 3 different sets of dates for when he met his teacher, likewise pertaining to other claims where his accounts contradict one another. He credibility is highly questionable for several reasons, there is a legitimate concern there.

It is true, I have trained with WTBA instructors and am quite familiar with a large amount of the teachings and videos in the group. I have not however attacked Erle, the WTBA or Gord Hill, nor will I. Those who know me well know I have a deep respect for the WTBA and Erle, and that my perspective on those topics is based upon very thorough research. But that is also an a side issue, my main point here is that Gord is not Erle and despite attempting numerous times to speak for Erle I don't feel he has done Erle justice. The thing is that Erle often gave instructions that were person specific, and Gord received those, however teachings personalized for one individual should not be exported as generalities, and having Gord tell us what Erle and the WTBA thinks is misleading. Gord is only fit to share his own views, and is free to start doing so at any time. If he wishes to share what Erle taught, it would be wise for him to make references and quotes.

Anyone with a modicum of experience with the WTBA knows it was assembled over a long period of time and the teachings in it do not constitute a system that is coherent. There are for example numerous teachings from Erle that are considered fringe teachings even in his own organization and they are not emphasized. The core system of the WTBA is much smaller than the overall set of instructions one can find from Erle, who had a sort of scattered approach over the years. As a result when he died the organization was in a state of disorder and chaos, many of the people in it, instructors included, were not even practicing the same form, despite calling the form by the same name. Eli has done a wonderful job of dealing with the chaos and allowing a complete coherent and comprehensive system to emerge from the WTBA. Unlike his father he has insisted upon minimum standards of performance, skill and knowledge for ranks to be obtained, Erle was very liberal with conferring titles and ranks, perhaps too generous, and Eli has in only a couple of years greatly improved the approach within the system. From the scattered, often contradictory and chaotic teachings of Erle; Eli has allowed a beautiful and effective martial system to develop and emerge, he never could have done this without his fathers foundation, but he still has a lot of work to do before the system becomes as good as the potential that remains inside it.

As for analogies about monkeys and mechanics, this is a facile and glib oversimplification. To estimate that the key is in the details does in my opinion show a potential misunderstanding. I will note that Yang Luchan was not well educated and passed along very little detail type instruction, and what the details where almost invariably pertained to practice and hands on approaches. The story of his skill development as a Chen stylist involves mainly dedicated practice and not theory. Also tales of teachers abroad, in Taiwan show that sometimes the most advanced students are those who understand none of the words of the teacher, but understand the energy itself, which cannot be taught with details, only with sensation.

The details do not practice for you, the theory does not help you play better, only practice does. The saying that taijiquan takes 4 hands to learn is accurate. A great many players who know lots and lots of details are not that skilled, for lack of adequate physical two person training in drills and push hands. Good skill takes hours and hours of work per week, with partners, to develop, there is no other way, forms and theory won't work for that. For example, if you have not practiced warding off a real punch, you will not be able to. This martial art cannot be used as a martial art without such practice and you will find that most who claim to do it for health do not do the drills and when they do they never take them to a martial level.

It is true my main training partner is in the WTBA, and has achieved the rank of instructor, and has been given a set of things to do before he can achieve the next instructor rank, I will also note that those things do not include forms and drills, which he does all the time and is quite good at, rather they have to do with instruction practice itself. However his skill in the WTBA is unmatched by any of his classmates, including his seniors, his skill is simply not the result of the WTBA content or a sign of how effective the system is, otherwise he would not be alone in the level he achieved. He dedicates himself well to practice and works very hard, but also has the benefit of training more with partners than any of his classmates. When you do hours and hours of push hands a few times a week for a few years your skill advances a great deal, this beats theory hands down any day of the week. Nobody can achieve that level of skill practicing alone, or by focusing on qigong or forms. knowing the details also does not help you in this type of practice, the basics are all that you need to begin and progress, the advanced stuff just gets in the way. You will find however that results such as my friend has obtained in the WTBA are not typical for those in the system, and his skill also comes from drills and instructions not found in the system, but stem from more orthodox Taiji, you see he gets the best of both worlds and works hard, as do I. I have greatly benefitted from practicing with him, and some weeks we easily put in 10+ hours of training together. If anything the skill that comes from this is true Kung Fu, skill gained via hard work over time.

One of the teachings I like, that inspires me for taijiquan is that one should never give up your voice, and to question all the talented people you can find.

[pete5770]

As for analogies about monkeys and mechanics, this is a facile and glib oversimplification. To estimate that the key is in the details does in my opinion show a potential misunderstanding. I will note that Yang Luchan was not well educated and passed along very little detail type instruction, and what the details where almost invariably pertained to practice and hands on approaches. The story of his skill development as a Chen stylist involves mainly dedicated practice and not theory. Also tales of teachers abroad, in Taiwan show that sometimes the most advanced students are those who understand none of the words of the teacher, but understand the energy itself, which cannot be taught with details, only with sensation.

The details do not practice for you, the theory does not help you play better, only practice does. The saying that taijiquan takes 4 hands to learn is accurate. A great many players who know lots and lots of details are not that skilled, for lack of adequate physical two person training in drills and push hands. Good skill takes hours and hours of work per week, with partners, to develop, there is no other way, forms and theory won't work for that. For example, if you have not practiced warding off a real punch, you will not be able to. This martial art cannot be used as a martial art without such practice and you will find that most who claim to do it for health do not do the drills and when they do they never take them to a martial level.

It is true my main training partner is in the WTBA, and has achieved the rank of instructor, and has been given a set of things to do before he can achieve the next instructor rank, I will also note that those things do not include forms and drills, which he does all the time and is quite good at, rather they have to do with instruction practice itself. However his skill in the WTBA is unmatched by any of his classmates, including his seniors, his skill is simply not the result of the WTBA content or a sign of how effective the system is, otherwise he would not be alone in the level he achieved. He dedicates himself well to practice and works very hard, but also has the benefit of training more with partners than any of his classmates. When you do hours and hours of push hands a few times a week for a few years your skill advances a great deal, this beats theory hands down any day of the week. Nobody can achieve that level of skill practicing alone, or by focusing on qigong or forms. knowing the details also does not help you in this type of practice, the basics are all that you need to begin and progress, the advanced stuff just gets in the way. You will find however that results such as my friend has obtained in the WTBA are not typical for those in the system, and his skill also comes from drills and instructions not found in the system, but stem from more orthodox Taiji, you see he gets the best of both worlds and works hard, as do I. I have greatly benefitted from practicing with him, and some weeks we easily put in 10+ hours of training together. If anything the skill that comes from this is true Kung Fu, skill gained via hard work over time.

One of the teachings I like, that inspires me for taijiquan is that one should never give up your voice, and to question all the talented people you can find.

If you don't believe that the details count for anything why would you bother talking to and questioning "..all the talented people..". When you ask a question of someone they are going to talk to you or show you the details of the subject you asked about. Not sure what else you would call these bits of information other than details. You'll learn a whole lot more about something if you listen and watch what the instructor is telling / showing you. I play the fiddle(well ,play might be too strong a word) and I can't imagine how much worse I would be if it was strictly monkey see, monkey do type of lessons. The details that come out of peoples mouths, minds, and hands(books) are invaluable in learning whatever art or occupation you're trying to become proficient at.