Guiding principle

Discuss Taijiquan or other soft styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

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Re: Guiding principle

Postby Josh Young » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:07 pm

If you don't believe that the details count for anything why would you bother talking to and questioning "..all the talented people..". When you ask a question of someone they are going to talk to you or show you the details of the subject you asked about. Not sure what else you would call these bits of information other than details. You'll learn a whole lot more about something if you listen and watch what the instructor is telling / showing you. I play the fiddle(well ,play might be too strong a word) and I can't imagine how much worse I would be if it was strictly monkey see, monkey do type of lessons. The details that come out of peoples mouths, minds, and hands(books) are invaluable in learning whatever art or occupation you're trying to become proficient at.

I too play musical instruments.
The basics are all you need, the notes, some chords, some scales, that is it, the rest is practice. I have numerous friends who are musicians and my questions for them are not about details, they are about what they enjoy, what they practice etc. For me the same is true for taijiquan, when people have skills my favorite questions for them are not about theory, they are about basics and practice.

In my own training in taiji the most important instructions from my teacher were basics and what and how to practice. I like an example of a book I have about white crane qigong by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, the basics are the qigong sets and the way to do them, the details about theory are secondary to those things, and the book does have lots of great details, but focusing on those does not yield the same benefit that focusing upon the basics does, and practicing them, of course. Math is another good example, knowing the basic theory of multiplication is simple, after that comes practice. Taiji is as a system for me a very simple martial art, it is not particularly complicated or difficult to understand, but skill does not come easily in it, again is is akin to learning an instrument, piano is a good example, a piano is ridiculously simple as an instrument, chords, keys, notes, octaves etc, this stuff is very easy to understand, however understanding such things does not make one skilled at piano, practice does.

The most advanced stuff in Taiji is comprised of the basics, much like the sign of skill with an instrument is the mastery of the basics, such as keys, scales and chords. The complex details and skills arise from and are composed of the basics. Mastery of the simple in taijiquan leads to mastery of the advanced and complex, there is little point in me seeking out advanced details, but I have everything to gain from the study and practice of the basics.

I will give an example from the WTBA about basics and advanced skill, the single hand push hands practice in this system when approached properly and mastered leads to incredible skill. Advanced skills in the system have more to do with this than the knowledge of any detail, and the basics for the drill are very easy to learn. Correction for this also involves the basics, getting them right. This simple and basic beginner exercise is also one of the most advanced teachings the system has to offer in terms of skill, just because it is basic stuff does not mean that it is not also the advanced stuff. Without this basic drill you can't get that far in the system no matter how much qigong or form work you practice.
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby pete5770 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:54 pm

Josh Young wrote:...when people have skills my favorite questions for them are not about theory, they are about basics and practice.

Mastery of the simple in taijiquan leads to mastery of the advanced and complex, there is little point in me seeking out advanced details, but I have everything to gain from the study and practice of the basics.


My last project before I retired was helping to build a new ice hockey arena. I worked for a steel fabricator in the engineering / drafting department and it was my task to produce drawings of every stair and railing in the building so that our fabrication iron workers could actually make what was required. To say that there were many different types and kinds of these items would be an understatement. The Architects drawings consisted of somewhere near 700 36" x 42" sheets. The main cover sheet was an artist representation of the building. The rest were what are called detail sheets. Now if I was really good at my job, using your logic, all I should have had to do is look at the cover sheet and nothing else. Just practice looking at the cover sheet. I'm sure you will agree that things don't work that way. No, I spent a year and a half pouring over "details" both on the drawings and at the job site. I talked to the guys in the shop, I talked to the steel erectors, the various contractors. All in an effeort to find out that little bit more that I needed know in order to produce my shop drawings. At no time did I think that all I had to do was the basics. I had to find out, in the real world, what was going to work and what wasn't and I needed to know it "right now". It was not something that you simply waited for and it would come to you. No, details are what allow you to actually build a complicated structure like that.
If you think Tai Chi is not complicated then you should be a master within a week and all my drawings would have been done in a week. If Tai Chi was so easy that all you have to do is practice a few basics then why isn't everyone a master? You make it sound easy but I say nothing worth having is easy. Opps, sorry, ran on a bit. Rant over. :oops:
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby sub_human » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:46 pm

Basics are what u learn, n r taught... Details are added pieces of information that give it art.

How U interpret those details, becomes ur art..
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby Josh Young » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:55 pm

You might consider taijiquan analogous to engineering a complex structure, I however do not. I view it as a skill development, analogous to learning another skill. Building a complex structure is not the development of a skill in the sense of training.

The idea that the simplicity of something means it can be mastered in a short time strikes me as strange. There is no logical reason to make such an assumption.

Instruments and music again make a good example, a piano is incredibly simple in terms of keys and octaves and the basic exercises that facilitate mastery are also quite simple, however that does not mean that they can be mastered in a short time. Tens of thousands of hours of practice are required to master something in general.

The idea that simple is the same as easy is a peculiar conflation, one i am surprised you would make.
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby pete5770 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:16 pm

Josh Young wrote:You might consider taijiquan analogous to engineering a complex structure, I however do not. I view it as a skill development, analogous to learning another skill. Building a complex structure is not the development of a skill in the sense of training.

The idea that the simplicity of something means it can be mastered in a short time strikes me as strange. There is no logical reason to make such an assumption.

Instruments and music again make a good example, a piano is incredibly simple in terms of keys and octaves and the basic exercises that facilitate mastery are also quite simple, however that does not mean that they can be mastered in a short time. Tens of thousands of hours of practice are required to master something in general.

The idea that simple is the same as easy is a peculiar conflation, one i am surprised you would make.


I think I'm going to say that your interpetation of the words simple and easy are not the same as mine, and leave it at that. :wink: :wink:
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby pete5770 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:10 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:

I think this topic, while admirable, is beyond many (including me). in other words, this is sort of like a bunch of pre-schoolers trying to discuss nuclear physics.


Why low rate yourself? What makes you think you can't understand the words that someone said a couple centuries ago? Why do those people hold some higher intelligence factor than you could possibly understand? What makes you think the rest of us can't understand these things either?Are you putting these old masters on a pedestal / altar? If so, why? Were they really the Gods you seem to worship or were they simply human beings? Why is what they say written in stone?
I thought Moses was the only one who got instructions in stone? is there any, and I mean any, possibility that what they said was wrong? Why would anyone accept what they said WITHOUT QUESTION? You sell yourself way short in your thinking that you don't understand what they said. You simply make way too much of it all.
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:36 pm

pete5770 wrote:Why low rate yourself? What makes you think you can't understand the words that someone said a couple centuries ago?


I cant believe you went there! mate, i have no issue discussing this. But, it best i include myself with the others in this case. The reality of this is, there are people who have not one iota of a clue about the topic, yet have littered the board with their nonsense.

If you understood the depth of the next piece of info i am working on, you would finally understand.. well, maybe. Stick to building bridges.
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby pete5770 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:20 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote:Why low rate yourself? What makes you think you can't understand the words that someone said a couple centuries ago?


I cant believe you went there! mate, i have no issue discussing this. But, it best i include myself with the others in this case. The reality of this is, there are people who have not one iota of a clue about the topic, yet have littered the board with their nonsense.



I can understand why you dislike other people expressing views that don't jive with your own.
What I don't buy is your view that everyone, except yourself, is an idiot(for lack of a better word). If you're the only smart one out there why tell everyone you don't understand "...this topic, while admirable, is beyond many(including me)". C'mon, bad mouthing everyone elses ideas and then telling us you don't understand and the topic is beyond you. How does that work?
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby Josh Young » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:00 pm

Very good question Dennis.

Perhaps it is a sign of a level of mental, emotional, and spiritual development?

I note Gord complains about reading long posts, and writing and explaining things as well, and while he is quick to insult, he has no explanations or original posts.
He admits not reading most of the posts here, despite insulting them as well. Most of his logic is that of emperor wears no clothes, wherein those who disagree are treated as at a lower level, instead of considered in any objective way.

When one lacks valid understanding that type of reaction is common, unable to explain and unwilling to participate as a member of a community one resorts to insults and self contradicting logic. I notice that I have yet to meet a single medium or high level qigong or taijiquan practitioner that behaves in such a manner.

Why have an axe to grind?
Childhood tends to hold the answer, but so does genetics, diet, habit etc.

He should try learning taijiquan or do some qigong, confusing a system often called by its creator "sudden violence" with taijiquan might be the root of the issue. He is trained to be aggressive, but has no peace of mind, spirit or body.

There is also no concept of Wu-De in his system, so perhaps it is simply that he was never taught how to be polite or what manners are?
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby pete5770 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:40 pm

Josh Young wrote:Very good question Dennis.

Perhaps it is a sign of a level of mental, emotional, and spiritual development?

I note Gord complains about reading long posts, and writing and explaining things as well, and while he is quick to insult, he has no explanations or original posts.
He admits not reading most of the posts here, despite insulting them as well. Most of his logic is that of emperor wears no clothes, wherein those who disagree are treated as at a lower level, instead of considered in any objective way.

When one lacks valid understanding that type of reaction is common, unable to explain and unwilling to participate as a member of a community one resorts to insults and self contradicting logic. I notice that I have yet to meet a single medium or high level qigong or taijiquan practitioner that behaves in such a manner.

Why have an axe to grind?
Childhood tends to hold the answer, but so does genetics, diet, habit etc.

He should try learning taijiquan or do some qigong, confusing a system often called by its creator "sudden violence" with taijiquan might be the root of the issue. He is trained to be aggressive, but has no peace of mind, spirit or body.

There is also no concept of Wu-De in his system, so perhaps it is simply that he was never taught how to be polite or what manners are?

+1
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:09 pm

Josh Young wrote:I didnt sling mud at all.


Josh Young wrote:Very good question Dennis.

Perhaps it is a sign of a level of mental, emotional, and spiritual development?

I note Gord complains about reading long posts, and writing and explaining things as well, and while he is quick to insult, he has no explanations or original posts.
He admits not reading most of the posts here, despite insulting them as well. Most of his logic is that of emperor wears no clothes, wherein those who disagree are treated as at a lower level, instead of considered in any objective way.

When one lacks valid understanding that type of reaction is common, unable to explain and unwilling to participate as a member of a community one resorts to insults and self contradicting logic. I notice that I have yet to meet a single medium or high level qigong or taijiquan practitioner that behaves in such a manner.

Why have an axe to grind?
Childhood tends to hold the answer, but so does genetics, diet, habit etc.

He should try learning taijiquan or do some qigong, confusing a system often called by its creator "sudden violence" with taijiquan might be the root of the issue. He is trained to be aggressive, but has no peace of mind, spirit or body.

There is also no concept of Wu-De in his system, so perhaps it is simply that he was never taught how to be polite or what manners are?


As to Dennis' question: mate, i was refering to a gent with 40 years experience with little visible understanding of the art (not to mention the numerous posts reflecting a total lack of understanding as to the core of the art he professes to study). Sorry if i spread my net too wide. It was meant for only one (yes, mud slinging!) :)
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby pete5770 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:47 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
As to Dennis' question: mate, i was refering to a gent with 40 years experience with little visible understanding of the art (not to mention the numerous posts reflecting a total lack of understanding as to the core of the art he professes to study). Sorry if i spread my net too wide. It was meant for only one (yes, mud slinging!) :)


Strange as it may seem I came on this website to learn things and believe it or not I have taken to heart some of what EVERYONE has said. It's been very helpful so far. Other peoples ideas intrigue me, to say the least. In any case wpg and I have gotten into something of a, well, I don't know what to call it. In any case the put downs, slams, etc. aren't doing either of us, or anyone else, any good. I will admit to a love of arguing a point, possibly to death and I plan to continue this questioning and back and forth banter. I will however, do my best to be, at the very least, constructive in any points I may ask about or express doubt or agreement with. I realize that it does no one any good to be an *sshole(for lack of a better word) and I definately can be one.
Truce "wpg"??? As the saying goes - who needs this sh*t?
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:57 pm

mate, this forum isnt meant for discussion. it is a bash fest. Didnt you get the memo? At least, that has been my experience of it since i started here. But you are right. no one needs this!
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby Josh Young » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:02 pm

How do we benefit one another and as individuals from refusing to read, consider or explain with one another?
How do we benefit from insulting, slinging mud etc?

I agree that Dennis does not strike me as a taijiquan master, but I am unaware of any claims by him that he is. I see him as making a sincere effort to share and learn here and while he and I have differing views, even clashing views at times, and while I am willing to debate things with him I don't see insults as useful in any regard.

His perspective is not one that I have, and so even if I don't share it, or disagree with it, I can learn a lot from it and have. A good family has a lot of diversity, it has some level of dysfunction, some black sheep etc, this is unavoidable, but it should have some solidarity as well. I view both Dennis and you as part of a family that I also belong to, even if we are distant cousins in that regard.

I have my own personality issues, autism, passive aggressive etc. I am about as far from perfect as a person can get. I understand how strong personalities clash, and you(Gord) and Dennis have very strong personalities, maybe because of that conflict cannot be avoided. I just hope that we can all be open minded enough to get past our differences of opinion, style, understanding etc, and learn what we can together.

Remember that even a master is still learning and that masters learn a lot from novices, simply because of our innate human differences. The lines between teacher and student are not always clear. Sometimes a passionate disagreement can motivate one to work and study harder, but insults too often get in the way of that. I am willing to debate with those I love.

if you know what an argument really is you know it is not conflict, it is a format of conversation where one presents a premise, evidences or observations and forms a conclusion, it is easily confused with conflict by those who don't understand it, but an argument is not a fight, it is like a scale weighing two objects via balancing them. Two differences of opinion can in conversation constitute an argument, but that should not result in conflict in most cases. The idea that an argument is a negative thing, a form of fight or a contest is just ignorant, as is the idea that two people cannot maintain utterly different points of view and still be friends or learn from one another.

Gord, you have a lot of good points, so does Dennis. I like that you are actively engaging in sharing them, but I don't understand why there is so much impoliteness. I'd like to think we can rise above that low level stuff so common in the ignorant masses online.


This forum is not nor has it ever been a bash Fest, it has been a sharing of information that is excellent. There is only one person here at all who claims it is a bash Fest, or who acts like it is, and he has admitted openly that he has not read most of the posts here. For a person to confess that they are ignorant of the content of the forum and then for them to say the content is this or that, is self evident as confused at best. If you get around to reading the posts, threads and content here you will find that it is very far from a bash Fest. There is only one person here who thinks it is that or acts that way, one, and he is Gord Hill.
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby pete5770 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:13 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:mate, this forum isnt meant for discussion. it is a bash fest. Didnt you get the memo? At least, that has been my experience of it since i started here. But you are right. no one needs this!


I am on a couple of other forums(not martial arts) and, yes, they can be just that, bash fest's.
After a while though it gets a bit old, but I will admit to liking to stir up the pot a bit at times.
Keeps people on their toes. Or maybe on here I should say it keeps people from being double weighted. Hmmmm, that was a bad attempt at humor if I do say so myself. Anyway, glad to have you comment on whatever I come up with.
Maybe I'll even have a good idea or two? :lol: :lol:
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:38 pm

Josh Young wrote:...I don't understand why there is so much impoliteness. I'd like to think we can rise above that low level stuff so common in the ignorant masses online.


You DON'T understand why the impoliteness? Mate, you have violated my privacy without understanding. We are not friends. You say we have a mutual friend in common, but mate, you know i dont know, nor have really met your friend in real life. To make sure you understand, that issue that you chose to do a few months ago was above and beyond impolite, and actually borders on stalking. I am not sure you understand what polite is. Oh, you type a fine game, and I am sure that in person, things would have gone a much different way, but you sir, after continuing arguments on other formats unrelated to this discussion is beyond impolite.
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby fazhou » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:47 pm

*sigh*
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Re: Guiding principle

Postby Josh Young » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:56 am

wpgtaiji wrote:You DON'T understand why the impoliteness? Mate, you have violated my privacy without understanding. We are not friends. You say we have a mutual friend in common, but mate, you know i dont know, nor have really met your friend in real life.

Did I say he was a mutual friend?
I believe you wrote that at one point, that we had a mutual friend, if I wrote that I apologize. It has never been my perception that we shared a friend or that you and I were friends.

To make sure you understand, that issue that you chose to do a few months ago was above and beyond impolite, and actually borders on stalking
.
I have no idea what you are writing about.
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