Developing toughness...

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Developing toughness...

Postby caesar » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:03 am

Hi,

I'd like to hear opinions about how much pain should be felt in training,
and in what stages and how far? What are your ways to develop tolerance, deal with fear? Does Taichichuan and other internal/soft arts have a different way to see this for example compared to shaolin arts?

I'm not an expert in the history of TCC, but I've heard and understood
that Yang Ban Hou didn't have many students because of his tough training
methods. He would show the students where they lack defence by actual
blows, waking up the student to reality. His brother Yang Jiang Hou was
said to be more gentle and more popular among students.

I've trained a couple of arts and had to deal with pain in different ways.
In some arts pain is almost never felt and training softness is more important. Let's
say I don't personally believe that anyone can have a clear sense of what
self defense means if they've never had to deal with pain when training.
Then again, in some hard Kung Fu styles the parts of body that were
supposed to block or hit, were been hardened, by "bone density training".
I didn't like this...

Then again, in one art I got injured often because all kinds of wrist
locks and stuff were done too hard on me (186cm, 60 kg = not much muscle
or fat protecting the joints.) But I still think I learned valuable
lessons in that art, having to confront my fears every time I attended
class...and having to learn to "KEEP ON GOING", even when in the moment of suffering. I
believe this is important in a real life situation. Although, in the same art, a teacher once said (after he did a violent lock very gentle, very soft, without pain)..."when we learn how to do a technique without hurting, we are actually learning to be even more destructive"

Is there a difference between softer and harder arts, on how to learn to
endure pain? A silly question but just for discussion: Did Yang Ban Hou
train tougher fighters compared to his brother "who was more gentle"? Or
is this just a myth in the first place? Was tougher training also in Yang
Jiang Hou's training methods, but only for more experienced students? And
how about Yang Cheng Fu and his inner door students? Or other masters you'd like to quote?

Can training softness in internal arts become so overpowering, that it
becomes needless to go through the same heavier methods harder styles
like to emphasize? Do you think Zhang Zhuang training alone increases physical and mental endurance, also to the point that it can increase chances in real life situations?

Here's a story...a few years ago, the instructor wanted to demonstrate a technique to our class, and I was his uke: 'I hit, he blocks, my arm swings to the outside, losing my balance, with his blocking hand: he hits me to the ribs while taking a step towards me.' Alright, I was even skinnier than nowadays, but as tall anyway. He punched me really hard and I yelled pretty loud cause it hurt. He says: "it doesn't hurt." Same technique again, even a stronger punch (or so it felt), I moan and he looks me into the eyes and repeats: "It doesn't hurt." This goes on still a couple of times until we started training it with our partners. Good training? Important training? Did my mental endurance increase? Physical endurance? I don't know.

Josh said in one post: "The Japanese styles are as notorious for destroying the body over time as the Japanese are proud of bearing pain without complaint, the masters don't speak often of the damage their training because to them to be honest about injury is a weakness." Is this exactly the case above? The art was Japanese. ;)

While training blocking and evading...and your partner is at sleep while he's supposed to react. Do you let your punch hit him/her..."to remind", or do you politely stop and verbally remind him/her to stay awake? And does this differ whether or not a beginner or experienced student? How do you confront fear, or do you feel a need for it in the first place?
caesar
 

Re: Developing toughness...

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:44 am

mate, when i was 19, and sitting at a table with my seniors after my shodan test, I took in a hard look. Karate beats people up, and we arent talking about an attacker! I decided at that moment that i wouldnt be continuing forever because i didnt want to end up like that.

It is my personal feeling that not only the hard stuff (like you mentioned on the joints), but the insane cals as "warm ups" and even the over extension of the joints into the air or being pulled on a target are all causes of concern. It has been nearly 20 years for me and I am still working on healing things from my karate days.

as to the rest, common sense mate. Common sense! Training is to BUILD up the body. If you are continuously injuring the body, are you building it up? The crazy thing with the martial arts is, some answer yes to that question! Think about it! Messed up
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby caesar » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:22 pm

as to the rest, common sense mate. Common sense! Training is to BUILD up the body. If you are continuously injuring the body, are you building it up? The crazy thing with the martial arts is, some answer yes to that question! Think about it! Messed up


Of course! I agree. Although Bujinkan (the art I meant) didn't over emphasize the joint part by kicking high or stuff like that...neither did we train standing in a horse stance...(I was also in Karate, know their ways, don't like...) But for example...in WTBA, how do you train applications...a little pain: good...yes...no...reality?

mate, when i was 19, and sitting at a table with my seniors after my shodan test, I took in a hard look. Karate beats people up, and we arent talking about an attacker! I decided at that moment that i wouldnt be continuing forever because i didnt want to end up like that.


Know what you mean. I also quit Taekwondo 10 years ago...started wondering why all my instructors go to knee surgeries one after another. :)
caesar
 

Re: Developing toughness...

Postby fazhou » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:30 pm

My two cents? It seems that there are two types of pain being discussed. The first is "acclimating" to strikes. I think it depends on what you want out of the art. Do you want real world self defense techniques? If so, you should probably get used to being knocked around a bit. If not, then it's not necessary to really know what an uppercut to the jaw will do to your self confidence, attention, pain threshold etc etc. The second type of pain is self inflicted and caused by poor body mechanics, over doing it, or an ill designed art or a combination. This type of pain should not be acceptable at all. Keeping in mind of course that there is a difference between "pain" and "discomfort". "Training is to BUILD up the body". Well said.
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:17 pm

caesar wrote:Of course! I agree. Although Bujinkan (the art I meant) didn't over emphasize the joint part by kicking high or stuff like that...neither did we train standing in a horse stance...(I was also in Karate, know their ways, don't like...) But for example...in WTBA, how do you train applications...a little pain: good...yes...no...reality?


I am not the best to talk on this, but here it goes. Hurting always happens. If you read some of Erle's stories with Chang, you find he was knocked out (which sits in line with what we know of Yang). Eli talks about injuries often, so it happens. Without pressure, the structure isnt tested and what you are learning is essentially theory. Erle didnt care much for theory which is why he was known around the world, like his ideas or not. You have to remember that there were many armchair detractors of him, who were extremely vocal from the comfort of their computers, but in person, not so much. The push hands methods that he taught also use more pressure than most are used to. Why? The basic idea is that if someone attacked you with little to no pressure (as most Pushes are done in tai chi classes), is that person really attacking you? Do you have to respond? With heavy pressure, you are training the reflexes to react to real threats (not made up ones). Of course, is worked up to in a progressive manner!

I dont know if you have seen the video, but Erle's power at close distances was terrifying (not my word). He was pushing with my senior and started to do single push hands with his own wrist basically on his own chest (a really powerful position!). My buddy had to literally fight to not get knocked over because of the force issued in his direction. He was sore for the rest of the training camp. No, pain is not a foriegn component to our training!

As to applications, we tend to look at things different than most. Yes, Erle has DVD's on the applications of postures. In fact, Eli has just finished a series on that topic (mtg 402 - may not even be on the site yet). But we use applications to develop certain aspects, NOT for fighting. Aspects like coordination, balance, timing.

For fighting, we use fighting methods, which are drawn from applications of the postures and repeated on both sides over and over again. The emphasis isnt so much on what we are doing, but more on dealing heavy blows to each other. It is the reflex training that we are looking for. We also work with what we call the small san sau. Erle LOVED this method which as I understand things, he learned from Chu (Yang sau chung's student). Erle often said that if the ONLY thing you ever worked on in fighting was small san sau, in 5 years of serious training, you would be able to handle most people if it came to that.

Again, while there are dozens of methods that start off as pre-set patterns, as you go, there arent any patterns. When we talk about the teachers today, many of them, like myself, have jumped to the new dvds in his series. The reality is, the early ones (from late 80's to early 90's) are the ones where you get alot of the goods on the toughness stuff (i have since corrected this and have most of the early ones).

hope that helps a little bit
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby caesar » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:02 am

Thanks for the reply, it did clarify.

The push hands methods that he taught also use more pressure than most are used to. Why? The basic idea is that if someone attacked you with little to no pressure (as most Pushes are done in tai chi classes), is that person really attacking you? Do you have to respond? With heavy pressure, you are training the reflexes to react to real threats (not made up ones). Of course, is worked up to in a progressive manner!


For my time in TCC, our school has been doing both ways, from soft to very hard (more pressure). I found both useful. Hard makes me see more flaws in my stance and stuff.

But we use applications to develop certain aspects, NOT for fighting. Aspects like coordination, balance, timing.


I see application training always as a way to improve coordination and stuff, as you said. I don't believe it's wise to even dream of making an application work in a real life situation. What happens in real life, is a mixture of everything you've ever learned, deriving from sub conscious (one way to put it). I see application training as a way to make one's own research of situations, and get better clue of what self defence means. In the end, there won't be any time to react in a conscious way. Like sub_human said in another post: "Query urself.. what form do u use when taking a gallon of milk out of the fridge(?), or when watering a plant.. ?"

We also work with what we call the small san sau. Erle LOVED this method which as I understand things, he learned from Chu (Yang sau chung's student).


Which Chu?
caesar
 

Re: Developing toughness...

Postby caesar » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:45 am

fazhou wrote:

fazhou wrote:My two cents? It seems that there are two types of pain being discussed. The first is "acclimating" to strikes


If you mean "how to take a strike with minimum damage" then yes, we're one the same planet.

fazhou wrote:I think it depends on what you want out of the art. Do you want real world self defense techniques?


What do you mean do I want real world self-defence techniques? I'm training a martial art, I'm training it to be better prepared for the real world...huh? No offence, but your question sounded like an ad to start Krav Maga. :)

fazhou wrote:If so, you should probably get used to being knocked around a bit. If not, then it's not necessary to really know what an uppercut to the jaw will do to your self confidence, attention, pain threshold etc etc.


Well this was actually a part of my question. Thank you for your opinion. I'm trying to ask people's opinion on whether or not it is necessary to really deal with the pain, for example from an uppercut, to be able to develop the proper sences to act in a proper way...when the situation is serious. This is part of my pondering when I was asking the hypothetical question about "YBH students vs YJH students"

fazhou wrote:The second type of pain is self inflicted and caused by poor body mechanics, over doing it, or an ill designed art or a combination. This type of pain should not be acceptable at all. Keeping in mind of course that there is a difference between "pain" and "discomfort". "Training is to BUILD up the body". Well said.


I agree. Although I believe the difference "between pain and discomfort" is not always clear for the practitioner. "Don't worry, it's good pain!" vs "You should feel comfortable at the position all the time"

I'd like to add to the
"acclimating" to strikes
part that it could also be learning to adjust for example to a throw, or a lock...if you end being locked, you might have chance still getting away by adjusting, not resisting, flowing to the direction where the lock is been done...to be able to get a little "air" between the locked joint, and then counter attack...but how will you learn this if your instructor doesn't give you a clear feeling of being serious with the lock, forcing you to act and move from pure sense, will, sub conscious action so to say?

Or is this the only way? I'm asking opinions, not making statements...for example could years of gentle push hands training give you the exact same feeling and skill, to find a way out by not resisting...after all tuishou is about listening, ain't it?
caesar
 

Re: Developing toughness...

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:38 am

caesar wrote: Like sub_human said in another post: "Query urself.. what form do u use when taking a gallon of milk out of the fridge(?), or when watering a plant.. ?"


Not sure if that is a wise thing to do, but anyway. There is no form in any martial art, ever. We, being humans, like to make things appear real, but it is only an illusion. You sometimes see it where people force things to go their way and they end up in total and utter devastation. They are trying to do with a spoon, the job that a back hoe is designed to do.

I realized this morning that i may have not clarified. In training, damage occurs because of the training methods and the intent behind the attacks. While we are not wanting to injure each other, it is the person defending who is responsible for not being injured (as it is in the streets). Pulling punches, like we did in karate is very damaging to one's ability to actually inflict pain when needed (dont ask how i know). But accidents do happen.

But taking a container full of beans or worse, metal balls and dropping your palms onto it for the sake of conditioning is insane! If you doubt that, go find a person who has done heavy physical work their entire lives and ask how their hands feel. Honestly, you wont even have to do that, just look at their hands. Yes, they are massive (in general), but they are usually broken and damaged from the effort. I remember reading a book on Kung Fu years ago where it had "ancient" methods. One was to progressively hit your off-hand into progressively harder and harder objects until, at the end, you could punch a 500 lb boulder and move it with one punch. Impressive? sure. But the warning and the reason for using the off-hand, the resulting hand was useless for anything else. What a productive use of life.

sorry, i could see some people responding with "you are contradicting yourself again" with my posts. I wasnt. Just assuming too much.
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby caesar » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:55 am

wpgtaiji wrote:


wpgtaiji wrote:I realized this morning that i may have not clarified. In training, damage occurs because of the training methods and the intent behind the attacks. While we are not wanting to injure each other, it is the person defending who is responsible for not being injured (as it is in the streets). Pulling punches, like we did in karate is very damaging to one's ability to actually inflict pain when needed (dont ask how i know). But accidents do happen.


I don't have more to say this but I agree. This was one part I was asking. Thanks.

But taking a container full of beans or worse, metal balls and dropping your palms onto it for the sake of conditioning is insane! If you doubt that, go find a person who has done heavy physical work their entire lives and ask how their hands feel. Honestly, you wont even have to do that, just look at their hands. Yes, they are massive (in general), but they are usually broken and damaged from the effort.


I don't have more to say to this either, but totally agree. Don't harm yourself with these kind of exercises. I find it more beneficial to be able to grab a pen and write than to have hands like steel. In Choy Lee Fut, there were wrist and leg hardening exercises. The IDEA was to inflict very subtle, very gentle jolt to these parts with partner exercises, training the same time blocking and stuff, you probably know what I mean. The teachers gave reason to this (that it would not make harm) by giving reasons to it...for example one instructor (same time physio therapeutist) said something like:
"Even pro tennis players have their right hand's bone density 200% stronger than the 'free' hand. This comes from subtle and gentle shock to the right hand, from every time the racket hits the ball. Swimmers do not have the same bone density as runners, because they aren't receiving the shock of receiving ground all the time, making them more vulnerable to osteoporosis"


Note, this is not my opinion nor have I reaffirmed this from anywhere else. Also CLF blocking wasn't "soft", they were not aiming to softly "redirect" whatsoever, it was purely strength against strength. And also, it never worked the "gentle" way, we would always do these exercises by the ability to endure by the more experienced student...this would of course be painful for the beginner and destroying the whole idea of "gentle" shock. But this was of course a problem of the school, not entire art.

wpgtaiji wrote:sorry, i could see some people responding with "you are contradicting yourself again" with my posts. I wasnt. Just assuming too much.


Well...whatever mate. :D Thanks for your post, really! But did you evade my last question on purpose? I asked that which Chu were you referring to by the small sansau comment. You're not talking about Chu King Hung?

caesar
 

Re: Developing toughness...

Postby caesar » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:52 pm

Do people have other ways to confront fear...? Except for direct experience of pain...or is this even necessary? Years of calming influence of breathing exercises and taiji-practice acts as calming effect in real life situation? ...Leads to better control of addrenalin? I remember when I was eleven and almost got attacked...I shaked and almost couldn't breath, I had no power anymore. Year later I did get attacked, I succesfully defended myself...it took me at least an hour not to shake and calm down again.
caesar
 

Re: Developing toughness...

Postby yeniseri » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:31 pm

You actually have to be in the positon to face the fear.
I remember when I first rapelled the side of a building, I was as scared as hell. I observed that the guys who went before me (some scared guys who actually tried to go to the back of the line) they were kept at the side of the building longer while holding the small of their back, with body at 90 degree angle. One guy actually sweated water and peed himself that he was soaking wet when he reached the ground 15 minutes later! I did play it off and the confidence level became much more natural over time.
p.s. I went to the bathroom before I went to the building site
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby caesar » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:31 am

yeniseri wrote:You actually have to be in the positon to face the fear.
I remember when I first rapelled the side of a building, I was as scared as hell. I observed that the guys who went before me (some scared guys who actually tried to go to the back of the line) they were kept at the side of the building longer while holding the small of their back, with body at 90 degree angle. One guy actually sweated water and peed himself that he was soaking wet when he reached the ground 15 minutes later! I did play it off and the confidence level became much more natural over time.
p.s. I went to the bathroom before I went to the building site


Alright, wise thing...about the bathroom I mean....

So as you say....
You actually have to be in the positon to face the fear.


How do you apply this to your martial training?

I'm starting to feel like this topic is a taboo, or then I'm just trying to ask something waaaay to obvious.
caesar
 

Re: Developing toughness...

Postby sub_human » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:03 am

Almost everyone knows (or can imagine), what a broken jaw feels like.

There is no reason to break people's jaws in training to inform them, that ur punch/attack could break their jaw... or cause pain. Coincidentally, there is no reason to receive a broken jaw (or injury) purposely from training..

Due to the fact that is why ur training.. to stay uninjured during a fight.



Pain happens & sometimes it is induced to illustrate a point, but training where the instructor punish his students bodies because you MIGHT be in pain someday?

Keeping yourself centered & in the now, allows one to deal with the pain and maintain focus on intent. Afterwards, one can nurse their pain, in safety.

Teaching yourself to bare the pain & maintain focus (meditation & centering) is more prudent than living in daily pain due to a Teacher's training technique. Unless your goal is Iron Fist or some other art that takes extreme measure of dicipline to achieve.

My body is my temple... if someone is willing to hurt me, to prove a point during practice, then they have disrespected my person. As my body is my income, my mean of locomotion, etc.


With force.. pain & injury are different, but the same. They are seperated by intent..
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby caesar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:24 am

Thank you sub_human! I liked your views.
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby fazhou » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:42 pm

Well said sub_human
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby Josh Young » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:56 am

I'd like to hear opinions about
how much pain should be felt in training,

If you clap your hands strongly you will feel the sting, this type/amount of pain should be easy to tolerate. Or as much force/pain as you will hit yourself with comfortably.

I'll answer "I don't know" for the other parts of the question.
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby pete5770 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:50 pm

FWIW you need to train for what you want to do. If you want to be a boxer or MMA fighter then you must get into the ring and spar. Pain is involved. If you can't tolerate the pain then you won't be much of a boxer. If you want to go war and kill people. Pain is involved. If you can't tolerate the Marine Corp and the pain they can dish out training you to fight wars, then you'll end up dead on some battlefield. If you have the urge to fight in the bars and honky tonks. Pain is involved. Training for this is really easy but the pain involved may not be so pretty.
I think you need to ask yourself what kind of "tough" you want to be. Fighter? War hero? Bar bouncher? The training is difficult and different for all 3(or more). You want to be tough in the pain sense? Pick one because you can't do all three. You want pain? Sign on for a tour with infantry Marines or Army in Afganistan and find out just how much physical and mental pain an enemy mortar barrage can inflict on the human body.
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby brer_momonga » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:20 am

I've found the discussion on this topic very interesting.

the school I attend does push hands but does not practice sparring. of course, as always, some of the students may do it in secret... there is some contact during drills and our instructor will use objects like a wooden sword to help give us a sense of enemy. he's been known to give us a "hard tap" if we're not giving 100% though ;)

caesar wrote:Although, in the same art, a teacher once said (after he did a violent lock very gentle, very soft, without pain)..."when we learn how to do a technique without hurting, we are actually learning to be even more destructive"


this is very interesting and I agree with his point. It is also the responsibility of the instructor to know how far he can push his student without injury or unwarrented pain and everyone must respect the tap out after a fellow student has felt enough of the lock to get the point for the moment.

caesar wrote:Here's a story...a few years ago, the instructor wanted to demonstrate a technique to our class, and I was his uke: 'I hit, he blocks, my arm swings to the outside, losing my balance, with his blocking hand: he hits me to the ribs while taking a step towards me.' Alright, I was even skinnier than nowadays, but as tall anyway. He punched me really hard and I yelled pretty loud cause it hurt. He says: "it doesn't hurt." Same technique again, even a stronger punch (or so it felt), I moan and he looks me into the eyes and repeats: "It doesn't hurt." This goes on still a couple of times until we started training it with our partners. Good training? Important training? Did my mental endurance increase? Physical endurance? I don't know.


Sounds like a Cobra Kai! I'd be standing there thinking, "And I pay this guy the majority of my spending money for this?!?"
There was probably something very important in the system to teach, but the instructor should be able to tell when someone is prepared for that kind of teaching. Perhaps he was frustrated that students weren't getting to the level he wanted them to be at fast enough... we'll never know... but that behavior in modern western society without clear understaning between student and master is abusive and I'm glad you've since found a school that's right for you for the time being.

That said, I think it is very important to toughen in martial arts... though I think instructors should know when a student is ready to be pushed into the harder aspects of the style. The instructor has many clues to tells when a student is ready for the next step: body language, observation, conversation... An instructor may pick or crack on a student a little to motivate them, but they should never use humiliation. I don't want to give the impression that since we're "paying customers" that everything should be wussified and the instructor should display exceptional customer service - but the instructor lives in our modern times too and he must find a way to be in harmony with it, while at same time pushing everyone (within reason according to each student's situation) to constantly improve themselves. And of course, we the students must push ourselves.

as far as confronting fear... I practice the drills and try to maintain a sense of enemy. it's improving my fear, but I can't exactly say to what degree... but one thing: I used to startle very easily. I still startle, but not as much.
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby pete5770 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:24 am

brer_momonga wrote:as far as confronting fear... I practice the drills and try to maintain a sense of enemy. it's improving my fear, but I can't exactly say to what degree... but one thing: I used to startle very easily. I still startle, but not as much.


You make a good point here. Maybe it's not so much about pain that brings about toughness. It's more about controlling your fear / panic and how you react to whatever the situation is. You could be lying face down in a shallow hole with enemy mortar rounds going off all around you.
Fear / panic inducing??? Sure can be. Startling??? Oh yeah. Pain inducing??? You may be wounded. In all of this the really important thing is to try and think clearly and not give in to fear, panic, or pain because that will generally only make things worse. Keeping yourself under control in crazy situations, maybe that's true toughness.
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Re: Developing toughness...

Postby caesar » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:05 pm

pete5770 wrote:
brer_momonga wrote:as far as confronting fear... I practice the drills and try to maintain a sense of enemy. it's improving my fear, but I can't exactly say to what degree... but one thing: I used to startle very easily. I still startle, but not as much.


You make a good point here. Maybe it's not so much about pain that brings about toughness. It's more about controlling your fear / panic and how you react to whatever the situation is. You could be lying face down in a shallow hole with enemy mortar rounds going off all around you.
Fear / panic inducing??? Sure can be. Startling??? Oh yeah. Pain inducing??? You may be wounded. In all of this the really important thing is to try and think clearly and not give in to fear, panic, or pain because that will generally only make things worse. Keeping yourself under control in crazy situations, maybe that's true toughness.


Controlling fear/controlling anger/staying calm when it all happens. Somehow this reminds me of practicing meditation.

pete5770 wrote:I think you need to ask yourself what kind of "tough" you want to be. Fighter? War hero? Bar bouncher?


I want none of those...just to improve the chances to survive...when the evil muggers try me.

brer_momonga wrote:there is some contact during drills and our instructor will use objects like a wooden sword to help give us a sense of enemy. he's been known to give us a "hard tap" if we're not giving 100% though ;)


This is something I can relate to. Training with/against weapons somehow leads to give more...or reminds about the seriousness of the situation. Btw...you mean he tapped you if you looked absent minded or what? I didn't exactly follow.

brer_momonga wrote:I'm glad you've since found a school that's right for you for the time being.


Me too. :)
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