Cross hands and Cheng Fu.

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Cross hands and Cheng Fu.

Postby Josh Young » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:23 am

I was participating in some discussions online and learned some information about the cross hands that are used in the hand forms as markers between the different sections.

If you study well you know that cross hands as found in Chens tyle is all throughout the form, it is found in many many places, such as in every grasp sparrows tail sequence. However the cross hands that is used to punctuate the form by dividing the sections is more interesting, evidently it is totally absent from pre-Chengfu forms and is one of the additions that Chengfu made.

It can be used to identify forms in terms of origination, all forms with this posture as punctuation draw from Yang Cheng-fu. Cross hands as a section marker is absent from material originating before him. This can also be used to identify cases of fraud or misunderstanding in that forms said to be before Chengfu that have this posture in it are not genuine.

It is a very interesting thing.

Here is a good example of some old style taiji, cross hands is not there:
http://youtu.be/ufhAXyrDG3E
another real one
http://youtu.be/BPvAFPD8x4E


here is an example of one said to be from Yang Jian Hou, but it is not, it is a modified Chengfu version:
http://youtu.be/ID-vsBdRjAk
Another one that is not what it is said to be:
http://youtu.be/2DNGJfP5dBY

There are also some moves totally absent from the modified Cheng-fu forms that are in all forms coming from Yang Luchan's students. If you study close you can see them quite easily.

I know this is very controversial because it outs a lot of claims of lineage. When I first learned of it I did not want to believe it, and I tried to study it in detail to disprove it, I ended up having to admit it was right on the money.
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Re: Cross hands and Cheng Fu.

Postby yeniseri » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:57 pm

I don't that it is a matter of fraud but personal inclination, previous arts studied and perhaps laziness of some degree! Yang Chengfu was stated to have received less exposre to the family art and his standardization was the template that the public follows nowadays.
One teacher I had indicated that I look to closer Yang Chengfu students like Niu Yiuming, Li Yaxuan, and look at similarities /differences as a comparison.
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Re: Cross hands and Cheng Fu.

Postby Josh Young » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:58 pm

My words were perhaps too strong.
I think you have a very good point.

I also have some question about a specific cross hands variation that bends down very low and scoops up, which may have come from Jian Hou. It seems to pre-date Cheng-Fus version, but is still totally absent from Luchans transmissions.

Yang Chengfu was stated to have received less exposre to the family art and his standardization was the template that the public follows nowadays.


Yes, and in many cases there are transmissions said to be from others, which are from him, and the students that receive them do not know this and so they claim a lineage they do not actually have, but they do not know better, clearly such cases are not fraudulent, despite the claims being illegitimate.
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