Origins

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Origins

Postby Monsoon » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:01 pm

Sometimes I get to pondering, and at such times I try to forget what I think I know and ask questions from a position of utter naivety

So, my question:

Does the sequence of postures in a form (any style) have a special significance?

To me tai ji is like DNA. The shi san shi are the genes and can be put together in a myriad of different ways, some of which end up being called family styles. What would be wrong about learning the basic postures, movements and transitions, and then simply putting them together in a sequence you find personally pleasing?

Thoughts!

Monsoon
peace and harmony

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Re: Origins

Postby Josh Young » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:02 pm

Monsoon wrote: What would be wrong about learning the basic postures, movements and transitions, and then simply putting them together in a sequence you find personally pleasing?


Nothing at all, but you would have to relinquish aspects of lineage as far as claims go. You can't do it your own way, even if it is the real 13 postures, and then claim you are doing style X, Y or Z.

Does the sequence of postures in a form (any style) have a special significance?


Yes, there are at least 3 aspects to it in common forms and styles.

1, educational sequences akin to language development,
-----in this there is taught a usage pattern where strategy is informed in general in a non-application specific way. One learns the basics (13 postures) in the first parts of the form(s) and then one learns how to combine and mix them in different ways in the later parts. Sort of like learning an alphabet and then being taught words, then grammar and punctuation.

2, applications sequences for specific martial contexts
----- in this is taught methods for specific things, such as dealing with multiple enemies in specific situations etc, one can refer to the applications secrets regarding this, there is information about applications encoded into the form(s)

3, progressive skill development
----- in an archaic teaching method one would learn the first move of a form, learn it well by practicing it, learn the applications of it, and then learn the next move. One b y one, week by week one would slowly learn an entire form, and when one completed the form one would formally learn the names of the postures of the form. In this one would at the end of learning the form, be able to do it properly, there was no idea of learning a form at a beginner level and then learning it at an advanced level, that is a rather modern concept.

(4?)There is another potential reason, some claim that the form(s) are based upon meridian activation sequences, however most of this is modern speculation and the older teachings had extra qigong (not in the form sequences) with meridian pattern activation in them, along with meridian based striking methods built into the form(s)

I have also been taught formally that the form(s) have spiritual significance, this is not related to the meridians activation but has to do with hidden content and symbols. One might investigate the significance of the 7 stars to further explore this. The form is credited by many to incorporate and embody specific Taoist teachings, including but not limited to the I-Ching and the Bagua (the trigrams). I have read claims that the form(s) sequences are directly founded upon the I-ching, I have yet to receive formal confirmation of this, but it is worthy of consideration.

These are my thoughts.
being merely a student I cannot claim to have any expertise

I do however practice both a form that is a traditional Yang method, and one I made from the 13 postures for myself and that draws from several taijiquan styles and systems.
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Re: Origins

Postby Monsoon » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:57 pm

I would never create a form and then claim a lineage - not the purpose of the question.

The rest of your post is all really interesting. I didn't know any of that. The well of my ignorance is bottomless indeed! :oops:

I guess my point is that when I look at all the various styles that are around today (at least those I see) all I see is the same postures and movements but in different sequences. For the purposes of my argument I am ignoring variations within postures such as to lean or not to lean.

I find it hard to believe that there are only a limited number of acceptable forms, given the potential for expression, and that this might be a kind of turf protection trick. Call me Mr Cynical but it is hard to shake that impression.

Is there a core text on this that a mere English speaker could read and understand?

Monsoon
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Re: Origins

Postby Josh Young » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:33 am

http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com ... hiyong-fa/

A very very good resource, in my view that somewhat addressees the topic.
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