Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

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Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby Dragon_Gyatso » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:51 pm

Hi,

I looked through the boards..
Could not find anything solid.

My question is on training I guess.
I've been in and out of working on my tai chi for 9 months.

I have Dr. Yangs DVD, Tai Chi for Beginners, his book and DVD: the essence of taiji qigong, and his book and DVD for the classical long form of Taijiquan.

My question is this:

Going off of the order of DVD's YMAA recommends you start off with for training..
I mean, it doesnt follow what Dr. Yang wrote in his book on classical taijiquan.

In the book he wrote that this is general sequence of taijiquan training:
1. understanding fundamental theory of taiji
2. relaxation, calmness, and concentration practice
3. breath training
4. experiencing and generating qi
5. qi circulation and breathing
6. still meditation
7. fundamental stances
8. breath coordination
9. fundamental moving drills
10. solo taijiquan
there are another 12 but thats more advanced..
Im more concerned with the first 10.
You can see he basically recommends first qigong training and then taiji training.
That is a complete understanding and feeling of qi before even learning the form.

But based on what YMAA suggests on "where to begin" it recommends the beginners DVD, and then taji qigong, and then looking at the classical yang style form book and DVD.

I mean what method of training is best?
Following the 10 steps the book mentioned?

Or learning the form and then moving forward with understanding and generating qi and moving on to the movement of qi during the solo sequence?

I have had mixed feelings about all this..

I kinda started 9 or 10 months ago.. but was so busy I never could practice everyday and fit it in where I can.
I read some info from books and worked on form a little.
And so my understanding is better..
But I have been truly confused on the proper method of training.

What do you all suggest would be ideal?

Im really looking to dedicate more time and energy into actual practice.

Thanks!
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby buddhafist » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:15 am

Hi,

I think these 10 points are a very good order, but I´m not sure if one can seperate them
really. Also everyone is different and receptive for different things at different times.
If one feels the need to move his body, he maybe is not well advised in doing relaxation
techniques all the time. I often use my feeling to find out what kind of exercises fit my
actual state.

I can tell what helped me a lot to gain quick results:
- Standing Meditation (observing structure) and Stance training
- Stretching and joint rotations everyday til I reached a basic fitness
- Simple Moving exercises like Chansigong (Silk Reeling), Tiangan (Heavenly Stems) or similar
ones to understand whole body movement and rooting

From this I gained a "basic structure". I feel how I stand, which muscles are activated...
where is tension etc.

Now I´m working more on the mind side. Sitting meditation, Daoyin, Breathing. It all has its time. In my opinion doing the form should be done when a basic structure is achieved. But I can tell from myself that the form is perhaps the one that everyone wants to do right from the beginning :wink:
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby pete5770 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:27 pm

I think you may be overlooking one thing. It takes time to learn an art, any art. Whether it's becoming a good car mechanic, playing the violin, becoming a doctor, or any of a million other things you're going to find that as a newbie you are going to make mistakes, and lots of them. Learning comes about over the years, not next week. Tai Chi is no different.
You wouldn't ask an Architect, who is just out of school, to design the worlds tallest building any more than would ask a new violinist to play a complicated double stop piece of music.
There is so much to learn in Tai Chi, as with anything, that even thinking your going to get a handle on it all in some short time period is folly.
My advice. Spend the next couple of years learning the basics of some long form. It will take at least that long. Then start to branch out into other areas of what you have already learned. Don't try to "learn it all". Never gonna happen UNLESS you have 4-6 hours a day to go at it. Even then, there is way too much out there to absorb and no one ever knew it all. I'm thinking that you have a hour or two a day max. to devote to this, if that. If you start digging into everything you'll end up learning very little about a lot of things. Pick the parts that interest you and go with them and forget the rest.
As an after thought, forget about meditation and that stuff. No one ever learned or accomplished anything by meditating. One one ever fixed a car by meditating. No one ever played the fiddle by sitting around thinking about it. Dinner never got cooked by thought processes alone. Tai Chi can't be learned by thinking about it. Meditation versus action? I'll take action every time. Accomplish something in life instead of thinking about it. Sorry, but I rant on.
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby pete5770 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:49 pm

buddhafist wrote:
In my opinion doing the form should be done when a basic structure is achieved.


Couldn't disagree more. If you want to learn to play the violin you don't sit around thinking about it. No, you go out and rent / buy a fiddle and bow, find an instructor, and you'll be playing(or trying) the minute you, the instructor, and the bow and fiddle get together. From the frying pan to the fire is how it's ALL learned. Not from wasting time on whatever "basic structure" is.
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby caesar » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:49 pm

I think this will be a blood bath once again but...

pete5770 wrote:As an after thought, forget about meditation and that stuff. No one ever learned or accomplished anything by meditating. One one ever fixed a car by meditating. No one ever played the fiddle by sitting around thinking about it. Tai Chi can't be learned by thinking about it. Meditation versus action? I'll take action every time. Accomplish something in life instead of thinking about it. Sorry, but I rant on.


Dear Pete...

For what you said before that part I quoted...it was just fine, it was pretty basic and good advice for anything one wants to learn...

And then you go back to this subject which ended up with nothing the last time you tried to proove your points on meditation and qi gong...

For the first part

As an after thought, forget about meditation and that stuff. No one ever learned or accomplished anything by meditating.


I suggest you go and read a book or two about simple zen meditation...you would find out what people who meditate often want to "achieve" by doing it. Actually, after a while reading the stuff you'd notice a lot of opinions about meditating being a path to realize the long hard road people usually have to struggle through, while wanting to achieve things. Now this doesn't mean that meditating should stop a human being from trying to achieve stuff...but for many the idea behind let's say simple sitting meditation, is (for example) to learn to follow your mind better (notice when you're "day dreaming"), also have a more clear mind (more alert to your surroundings), have a deeper sense of breathing and improving your concentration.

One one ever fixed a car by meditating. No one ever played the fiddle by sitting around thinking about it. Dinner never got cooked by thought processes alone.


In your discoveries while reading about the subject meditation you would also start to notice that...when you are meditating, at least in a sense of zen and many other popular meditation...the point is not to think, it's about learning when you are thinking, how your thinking affects you and your decisions...and eventually, (but often not happening for a beginner), to be able to have an absolutely clear mind with actually no thoughts.

So your comparison about not being able to play the fiddle or cook food by sitting around thinking about it is really not an argument against meditation. And I doubt buddhafist was talking about "sitting there and thinking about tai chi" either. When he was talking about "- Standing Meditation (observing structure) and Stance training", I believe he was referring to get the basics good by for example standing in the tai chi postures...and by that practice getting the basics to improve the flow of the form, NOT standing there and learning to do the form by thinking about it...you with me?

Meditation versus action? I'll take action every time. Accomplish something in life instead of thinking about it. Sorry, but I rant on.


So, if you followed me, then at this point you will know that when somebody is meditating, he might be also training his or her mind...improving the concentration to be able to keep the mind on the right thing for a longer period of time. And in this case, it's tai chi.

And just to be sure that there's no misconseption about this: I don't think that anybody in this forum thinks that purely and only by meditating you can learn tai chi or guitar or anything else. But having meditation as a support to your hobby, that's another case.
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby caesar » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:35 pm

I would also like to add for clarification, that meditation as a word is used very commonly...which means that there are different types of meditation systems...and in some systems the point might actually be to think about something very strongly...

But commonly, that is not the case in simple meditation where you often sit, or stand, or even walk, but with the point of learning to follow your own mind, keep track of the thought processes been born and vanishing in the mind, following your breath (which works as a tool for no getting puzzled in thoughts). And for my opinion, this is more of the type of meditation which is usually referred in these kind of subjects in this forum.

One simple meditation exercise commonly for zen, is to sit on floor, or chair...and breath, simply breathe. And every time you notice that you are for example having a thought or an image, you simply go back to the exercise and follow your breath. Now this might sound easy but it's not. It actually requires a lot of concentration and it only gets improved by time.

Also tai chi is anything but easy. But when you're doing your form, and you suddenly notice you're doing a single whip while the rest of the class is doing another move...the case just might be that you were lost in your thoughts, in your mind...in other words, you let your mind wander somewhere else on the moment it was supposed to be on the action (tai chi in this case.) It's the same thing when meditating, one notices that he/she was not listening to his/her breathing, and was actually wandering in thoughts. So in other words, meditation has a bridge to tai chi (or bagua, or cooking, or playing an instrument etc etc), because the same elements are there...concentrating on having the mind in the right place, at the right time.

Another very simple example of meditation is just simply breathing a couple of times trying to relax...you've played an instrument Pete? If you have, or you have a professional friend, you might have seen him/her sometimes taking a few deep breaths before starting the play. It's about being relaxed, same case with meditation and the bridge..
Last edited by caesar on Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby caesar » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:36 pm

argh, double post
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:35 pm

ceasar, you have infinitely more patience with ignorance than i do.

It is important, that if you want to do taiji, do taiji. The structure training that was mentioned is shaolin, and very much a part of what i see in Dr Yang's material. That is fine for that practice, but not taiji.

When you learn a good form of taiji, the structure work is done along side. You first learn it in 3 circle standing qigong (which is brutally tough on a new person). The next, you learn about the rudiments of yin and yang separation in the step forward to Peng (RUDIMENTS! It is a starting point, and more than suitable for beginners). The movement to Double Peng teaches up a ton about proper stepping mechanics. The movement of the torso from double peng to lu to ch to arn teachers volumes on the correct use of the classic "the power is generated by" etc.

The reason you learn the form and structure together, and not separate, is so the student can learn to apply it right away, which is unifying body and mind at a rudimentary level. Eventually, we learn to shorten the time from what the mind sees to what the body does.

There is also a very good reason to wait until the first third is learned before starting push hands (SINGLE ONLY), and to not worry about double push hands for a few YEARS.

All this said, it is perfectly acceptable to learn training methods to augment and refine a piece of structure or posture along the way, but the whole thing is to work the form.

by the way, there is a whole method of teaching that says you teach the postures for months, holding them for hours each. It is my belief that these are incomplete methods. They are also the same styles that push the 8 energies and 5 steps as something sacred and important. I know Josh will take offence to this, but so what! He has his opinions. The reason they do this, in my estimation, is that is all they have. They want to make their curriculum look full, so they delay their students' time in learning the "fundamentals". The 8 energies are not fundamental! If one cant do the postures, there is no point in even talking about them! Again, the teachers do it feeding their own ego! They want to look important because that is all they have.

So while i dont totally disagree with the idea, it is infinitely better to the student in the long run to work the form. Besides, very few people who do taiji have any understanding of structure (I am not refering to anyone on this forum, but in the general taiji world).

Let the flame wars begin! roflmao
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby caesar » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:38 am

wpgtaiji wrote:ceasar, you have infinitely more patience with ignorance than i do.



Yeah well thanks wpgtaiji but I'm actually more the passive aggressive type who holds things inside and then suddenly snaps and lets hell loose :D
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby caesar » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:49 am

wpgtaiji wrote:It is important, that if you want to do taiji, do taiji. The structure training that was mentioned is shaolin, and very much a part of what i see in Dr Yang's material. That is fine for that practice, but not taiji.


But wpgtaiji...if Wu Tunan was a student of Yang Shao-Hao...then what do you think of this article? I find it interesting.

http://www.freetao.co.uk/page620.html

wpgtaiji wrote:Let the flame wars begin! roflmao


Light it up. :evil: ;)
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby sub_human » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:22 pm

Many confuse taiji.. & qigong.
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby Inga » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:54 am

A discussion about meditation is fine, even if it's under the topic of 'Beginning Taijiquan', but not lighting up flame wars. I realise it was a joke, I hope it was a joke, but it's not worthy of rolling on the floor laughing. The people on this forum have varying points of view, different experiences and depths of knowledge - it's a place to exchange all this, share, and indeed challenge, but do so with courtesy and respect. The Moderators expect not just patience, but also tolerance. It's surprising to me how often we have had to point this out of late.

I personally feel that as taiji is often referred to as "moving meditation" that it's a valid point to discuss here. I think people do have different interpretations and practical applications of meditation. I hope this conversation will continue, on it's earlier path, looking at mediation practice, it's use within training martial arts, or go back to Dragon G's request for help in getting started with his/her training. BTW Dragon G - 'time and enegry' IS your practice of martial arts, that's what gong fu means. If you make the time, and use your energy, you will progress - sometimes slow, sometimes fast. If it's possible to find a way to have input from a valid instructor I think it is recommended, so you can have corrections and make sure you don't form bad habits. Working on your breathing, and doing qigong are not time consuming and have a great benefit, in my opinion, right from the get go - you have nothing to lose. And keep building as time and energy allow : )
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby caesar » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:04 am

Yes Inga it was a joke. Sorry for its bad timing and place.
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:36 am

Inga wrote:A discussion about meditation is fine, even if it's under the topic of 'Beginning Taijiquan', but not lighting up flame wars. I realise it was a joke, I hope it was a joke, but it's not worthy of rolling on the floor laughing. The people on this forum have varying points of view, different experiences and depths of knowledge - it's a place to exchange all this, share, and indeed challenge, but do so with courtesy and respect. The Moderators expect not just patience, but also tolerance. It's surprising to me how often we have had to point this out of late.

It is clear to me that you have not been a part of a few discussions involving Josh and myself. That is fine, and that is what i was referring too. Lighten up

I am not sure how to address the rest, as it is so full of misunderstanding, i would would have to start at the beginning. Yes, you read that right. Taiji is ONLY "moving meditation" IF you are doing a correct form FIRST (an enormous majority have no clue about that part and arent). Then you must have done YEARS AND YEARS of standing meditation and the correct form in order to have the internal balance to even hope to have the ability to be in the correct position to have anything happen. Again, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people have no clue about this, and will NEVER get to that point.

What HAS happened in taiji is that people read that it is supposed to be "moving meditation", so the pretend they are doing that. They pretend they are moving through space, not connecting their centres (not what you think, but yes centreS or centerS for you americans). Not in balance (again, not what you think). Not understanding why they are doing the movement in the first place (and this is VITAL! If the mind is confused about the reason for doing something, it will NEVER be internal! And moving for health or kindergarten reasons (aka applications given by most teachers) will not do it.

Since you brought up moving meditation, you are now part of the flame war! LOL Ok, just a REAL discussion as to what taiji as meditation is about. See, taiji is a wonderful healing method, but ONLY if you get the conscious part of the mind out of the way (what people call No Mind in japanese martial arts). So that means that the rest MUST be done by the subconscious mind! The subconscious mind is our SURVIVAL mind! The Yin and YANG of it says that the bigger the YANG part, the bigger the YIN part. Doing taiji for health or meditation is such a small YANG, that the YIN part (the healing) is by law, small. Doing taiji as it was intended, as a KILLING ART, is a HUGE Yang, so the YIn part is enormous (the meditation and the healing). It is a paradox, but it is true. And the methods you discuss, while appearing big ONLY because of poor health to begin with, are NOT what taiji's potential healing is! It is a mere shadow of what this great art is capable of (pretty scary isnt it?) To keep on topic, NONE OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH BEGINNING TAIJI!

Now, any day now, Josh will jump on and tell me how full of bullox i am. I DONT CARE! (that is the flame war inga).
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Re: Method of Training - Beginning Taijiquan

Postby baihe shifu » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:08 pm

Taiji is in some ways like White Crane Gongfu ....... If you want to do Taiji the answer is simple ............ do Taiji.

Don't write copious amounts but simply do ..... learn ..... feel ..... express.
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