Tibet

Discuss Qigong, its ideas, theories and practice. Please stay on topic.

Moderators: nyang, Dvivid, Inga

Postby Dvivid » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:58 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-MRx94i5Dg

Tibetan artist who tattoos Tibetan political messages free of charge.

Palbey is a 'new arrival' in Dharamsala, he only arrived from Tibet four months before this was taped. He and his family are just one of the countless victims of the protests that swept Tibet in 2008, calling for freedom under Communist oppression.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Tibet

Postby Dvivid » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Young Tibetans are getting involved and organizing to spread awareness of the ongoing atrocities in Tibet: https://www.studentsforafreetibet.org/
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Tibet

Postby Monsoon » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:22 pm

It's amazing both how polarising the China/Tibet problem is, and how Tibet has remained a fashionable cause for so long. Many of the arguments that are traipsed out tend to have been birthed by those who see everything as black and white, which it clearly isn't.

The social history of Tibet is not an envious one by any country's standards. It is also quite amazing just how much violence people are prepared to engage in to promote their message of peace. Irony, much?

While the Dalai Lama is an honourable man I am sure, even thought well of among Chinese people I know personally, part of the problem lies in the fact that fanatical followers will do anything in his name and claim some holy prerogative. It doesn't matter where you go, fanatics are fanatics.

Do I think China is right to stay in Tibet? Yes and no... it could have been administered like Hong Kong, for example. Despite what many people think, there is a great deal of ideological, religious and political freedom in today's China. However, there are boundaries that need to be observed. Falun Gong are a prime example of this - supported by the government until they overstepped their remit, and then stamped on.

It's a different country, it's a different culture - and one which runs deep, as China is NOT a nation state but a culture state at heart - it ill-behoves people from other countries, other cultures from denigrating the exact same behaviour that they have previously lauded from their own governments.

The sooner people quieten down, concentrate on their own lives, the quicker this will resolve. And I believe that the Tibetan region will be strengthened by this meld with China, as well as Chinese culture further enriched by Tibetan flavour.

Not perfect, but not unworkable either.

It's about time critics got down from Mount Holier-than-Thou and thought about the problem practically and pragmatically. The changes that are being observed cannot be reversed but they can be smoothed.

That is all. I thank you for your indulgence.

Monsoon

ps. I am not Chinese, in case anyone was wondering! :D
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Tibet

Postby joeblast » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:02 am

the hearts of Statists only know command and control. of course "its for your own good" just like any number of other ridiculous measures like taking away your ability to defend yourself, or punitive taxation that lets the statists dole out the country's resources as they see fit and not as the individuals see fit. or using bad math to justify spending twice what you take in, or using bad math to justify taxing one's exhalations.

being passive at all costs merely winds up leading to enslavement. going along to get along to maintain the peace and letting atrocities pass by unaddressed, one finds himself surrounded and eventually unable to appreciably affect his situation.

the free man, in the face of tyranny, is really only able to make that mistake once.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
joeblast
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: CT

Re: Tibet

Postby Dvivid » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:28 am

Monsoon, Im going to assume you don't have the whole picture, and you're speaking abstractly...

You should realize any violence on the part of Tibetans has been in the form of retaliation, and it is a rare exception to their pacifist way of being. After 50 years of intense violence, rape, murder, and cultural genocide, some of the younger generation have retaliated. Probably .00001 % versus what has been perpetrated against them without provocation.

It is illegal for Tibetans to speak Tibetan or even have a photo of the Dalai Lama. This is cultural genocide, rationalized by the Chinese for two reasons: they want the natural resources of the territory, and they force their ideology on as much territory as possible.

they are importing Chinese people into Tibet as fast as possible, and Westernizing the region, opening porn stores and allowing widespread prostitution and corruption to undermine the entire culture.

I don't think you can realistically call anyone supporting defense of Tibet a fanatic. This is a human rights issue, and one of social justice.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/dispatch ... -in-tibet/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMwhl-Cfyyc
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Tibet

Postby chh » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:57 am

Dvivid- I have no doubt about the threat Chinese rule and settlement poses to Tibetan independence and culture and language, but it's not illegal to speak Tibetan in Tibet. It's legally the official language of Tibet under Chinese rule. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_T ... rary_usage

Monsoon- I am curious about what criteria make you think Falun Gong 'overstepped their remit' in a way that licenses persecution by the Chinese government. Whatever boundaries you're thinking of, why do they need to be observed? I really don't buy the claim that resolution of human rights issues comes from people around the world remaining quiet and concentrating on their own lives. Are there any examples you can give of that sort of cause and effect?
chh
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:09 pm

Re: Tibet

Postby Dvivid » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:16 pm

CHH, Im sorry, but that information is not current.

http://www.freetibet.org/about/society- ... d-religion

"The Tibetan language is under threat as Chinese has replaced Tibetan as the official language.

Tibetans are in a highly disadvantaged position to get further education than their Chinese class mates. Secondary education is taught exclusively in Mandarin and entrance exams to universities are in Chinese. While China claims massive investment in Tibet, the level of education of Tibetans remains extremely low.

In 2005, only 11.5% of the Tibetan population had secondary education or higher. The illiteracy rate for the TAR is a staggering 45% (2005) compared with 10% (2004) in China as a whole.

More and more Tibetan parents are sending their children to Chinese language primary schools, hoping it will lead to improved employment opportunities. Those children often end up not being able to read, write or even speak Tibetan.

Attacking the language is part of the Chinese government’s plan to forcibly assimilate Tibetans into China."
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Tibet

Postby Dvivid » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:22 pm

The situation is similar in ways to that of the Native People in North America.

"1.5 million Tibetans have been slaughtered since the Chinese occupation.
Over six thousand monasteries and temples and historical structures looted and destroyed beyond repair.
Tibet's ecosystem has been severely damaged: vast regions of forest have been removed whilst numerous wildlife species decimated just for food by the Chinese.
Tibet's substantial mineral resources have been pillaged and continues to this date.
One quarter of China's nuclear missiles are stationed in Tibet.
China is using Tibet as a dumping ground for nuclear waste.
Some four hundred thousand Chinese troops are based in Tibet.
Over 8 million Chinese colonists have moved into Tibet in a step to dominate the Tibetans.
A secret Chinese document in 1992 revealed plans to swamp the Tibetan population with even more Chinese.
Forced abortions, many in late pregnancy, and sterilization of Tibetan women is not uncommon.
Some four thousand Tibetan political prisoners are being held including the child Panchen Lama.
Over 180,000 Tibetans are in exile worldwide.
In 1959, the international Commission of Jurists found that genocide had been committed in Tibet."

http://www.lobsangrampa.org/tibet.html
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Tibet

Postby chh » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:36 pm

You're right- I should have said 'an official language of Tibet', since Mandarin is also an official language there as it is throughout China and the 'autonomous regions' it controls. I'm sorry, but that link doesn't show me any actual documents that show that Tibetan isn't an official language in Tibet.

This is from 2009, I don't know if you can find anything more recent. It's harder than I thought it would be!: http://www.gov.cn/english/official/2009 ... 8355_4.htm

At any rate, I haven't seen any evidence that it's illegal to speak Tibetan in Tibet. Such things have happened with other languages at certain times. No Native American ones that I'm aware of, although I think you're right that the actual situation there is similar since it seems like school is conducted in the politically dominant language. An example of a language being banned would be when it was illegal to speak Kurdish in Turkey for a number of years. However, It's not illegal to speak Tibetan in Tibet.
chh
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:09 pm

Re: Tibet

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:05 pm

It is not my intention to attempt to change anyone's mind on these issues, but I will urge open discussion.

Regarding language, Mandarin (putonghua) is the 'official' language across China, but many people still speak their local dialect in preference. As has been stated by Chh, this situation exists in Tibet too. The fact that the Tibetan language may eventually be supplanted and disappear is not really worthy of discussion or dispute. Throughout human history languages have risen and fallen, much as civilsations have done the same.

Tibet was never a democracy, and its social and cultural history outlines a country that had little regard for the health and welfare of its own people. The problem a lot of pro-Tibet supporters have is recognising the fact that Tibet is not, and has never been, the paragon state they would like to believe.

@JoeBlast, yes but we all mostly live under Statist rules, I don't see anyone rebelling against them in the West, do you? Why don't the American people invoke the 2nd amendment and take their arms against their own largely Statist government? Strawman argument bringing in Statist theory IMO.

I realise that my stance of not being in favour of Tibet OR of China will be atagonistic to many people, but I am allowed an opinion.

@Dvivid, I am aware of what is going on, I deplore it as much as the next man, and although my points were largely of an abstract nature I would point out that when I see the kind of arguments that you (for example) bring to these issues, what I really see is a clarion call for stagnation. The world turns and it changes. Resistance to change at any cost is stagnation. Stagnation is equal to death. It's a human condition to hold on to what is known, what is familiar, but this is not the way of the natural world. Checks and balances are encouraged, but not at the expensive of any change at all. Also, I am not calling pro-Tibet supporters fanatics - you misread my point, which was that fanatics will latch onto any charismatic leader and it is the fanatics that put the leader in a difficult position.

And besides which, who is to judge whether a culture should survive or not? You? Me? Anybody?

Regarding falun gong (and perhaps this needs a new thread of its own), it is well known that as a practice is was highly regarded in China UNTIL it refused (rightly or wrongly)to be part of the Party's official qigong program. At which point it began to flex what populist muscle it thought it had. This was a line beyond which the Party would not tolerate, hence the suppression. Now I am not defending this, merely pointing it out.

Two other points should also be noted:
1. Human rights is a concept only. What is acceptable in one society may not be acceptable in another. If another society differs from your own then it is natural to want to assume you are right and they are wrong. This has no basis in any 'truth' though.

2. It seems that we in the West just love to crtique other cultures, particularly within the subtext of 'we are better than them'.

Just going back to change. Changes are happening in China too. It is no longer the staunch Communist country of the 1950-60s. In fact, over the next 50-100 years I think we will see it alter all out of recognition into something new, a synthesis of what works from many systems. Remember, China is NOT a nation state but a culture state. This makes an enormous difference to national identity.

Personally I think it is a shame how things have transpired. Although it is mirrored down the centuries, and we are not blameless in our own countries. It's a little like parenting. You have to let people make their own mistakes. Telling people what to do teaches them nothing.

Anyway, a surprising argument from a buddhist you may think!

Monsoon
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Tibet

Postby joeblast » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:47 pm

Whatever the previous Tibetan government was lacking did not make it okay for the Chinese to go in there and take over the place - so any remarks about what was lacking prior is indeed a strawman. Whether you're for, against, or neutral, that does not change the fact that China invaded and took over Tibet.

In the west...well, "the sheeple have not woken up yet" and only those who really want to know what's going on are the ones aghast at what our government is doing basically all across the board. They will continue to steal elections to obtain the result they want, like we just saw, and the media, being fully in bed with the government, the big businesses, the banks, will glowingly report a positive result, and will help point the finger away from the real problem like we saw with the fiscal "cliff" (talk about a straw man!) The government will continue to be bought by these entities, one hand washes the other, until at some point "other people's money" is gone and we'll understand what Greece is feeling. They'll continue to pass out weapons to foreign factions as if it were legal, continue to wage covert wars at home and abroad.

Is it any different than what's happening in Tibet? Yes, and no. A culture is being suppressed by an oligarchy hellbent on propagating their vision at all costs.

I have to disagree with the supremely passive "let the X-mongers just do whatever they want, for they're going to do whatever they will do and there's nothing we can do about it." Such thinking leads citizens into chains.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
joeblast
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: CT

Re: Tibet

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:34 pm

Fair points all.

... well, "the sheeple have not woken up yet"


Unfortunately that's most people.

However, my point really concerns the fact that you cannot go back. The Chinese have annexed Tibet (again, it's not as if this is the first time after all), and to attempt to return to pre-1959 times or earlier is the height of folly. At the risk of sounding a touch poetic, the wheel continues to turn and we must make of it what we can and what we will.

For the record, I do not support the annexation, nor the actions perpetrated by either side (particularly the over-zealous Chinese). It seems that some form of cultural autonomy within the greater Chinese republic is the best to aim for, and is being aimed for at present. The violence from both sides detracts and distracts from the issues at hand.

Whatever the previous Tibetan government was lacking did not make it okay for the Chinese to go in there and take over the place


I could use those words and substitute Iraq for Tibet and Americans for Chinese respectively, but of course THAT invasion and subsequent occupation was entirely justified... wasn't it?

A culture is being suppressed by an oligarchy hellbent on propagating their vision at all costs.


Or this, represents US foreign policy to a 'T' really. :wink:

Not my intention to get into a comparison war here, but rather to help to maintain a little perspective. Otherwise we will have to turn our eyes on to Europe and how unstemmed immigration is eroding the cultures of all the host nations. Yet that's apparently acceptable.

The means is one thing, the end another.

with respect,

Monsoon
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Tibet

Postby joeblast » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:57 am

Yeah, unfortunately, its going to be quite a while before our dear DL reincarnates in Tibet, methinks. Especially since the Chinese gov made sure any sort of identification mechanism was usurped and broken, doubly so because there doesnt exist any path towards Tibetan independence, save China's fudged government books happen to catch up with them to a significant enough extent. (which would be quite an extent, a few looks at their economic data is plenty to tell that there's a whole lot being fudged - of course, you can compare that to the GIGO CBO we have here where they get told what is in scope to score for a particular piece of paper so that the 'correct' result is obtained, spitting in the face of reality though it may be. Re: 'wars'...if you look at how gold relates to iraq, libya, oil, etc...TPTB...one can go on endlessly on that stuff and find a million atrocities committed by their governments. I'll humbly refrain from continuing on all of this though, aside from encouraging people to use the most destructive tool in existence for that status quo - the internet. ;) )

/\ I pray the world can correct itself in my lifetime and proceed fairly, allowing for yin and yang, not forcing us all into equally sized cattle-stalls.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
joeblast
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: CT

Re: Tibet

Postby Dvivid » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:37 pm

Tulkus have been reincarnating outside of Tibet increasingly in recent decades, all over the world. The DL has mused that if it is decided that he SHOULD reincarnate, maybe he'll reincarnate somewhere in the West (and maybe as a female). He'll decide after his 90th birthday.

The concern is that China will claim they have found the D.L. reincarnated. it seems that is their plan since they kidnapped the 6-year olf Panchen Lama, who in the past was one of those responsible for locating the DL's reincarnation. And they have put another kid in his place as Panchen Lama, with the intention of finding a China-friendly fake DL. So crazy.

This is an interesting article:
http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-ri ... -lama.html
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Tibet

Postby joeblast » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:49 pm

And of course anyone who knows anything about the situation will immediately recognize that the function of the panchen lama has now been distorted, sullied, and the "official Panchen Llama" as declared by the chinese is a null and void fabrication, as will any future DLs declared by the chinese.

That's their method of "disarming the dalai llama and making him useless, irrelevant"...soon to be historical figure.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
joeblast
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: CT

Re: Tibet

Postby Dvivid » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:12 am

China is seizing TVs in Tibet.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ ... 8-03-58-35

For months, as Tibetans across western China doused themselves in gasoline and set themselves alight, authorities responded by sending in security forces to seal off areas and prevent information from getting out, but those efforts did not stop or slow the protests. The self-immolations even accelerated in November as China's ruling Communist Party held a pivotal leadership transition.

Then the government went on the offensive in December, announcing through a state-owned newspaper that the burnings are the work of foreign hostile forces keen on separating Tibet from the mainland and that those who help others self-immolate are liable to be prosecuted for murder. Arrests quickly followed.

"Tibet is getting into the global evening news because of self-immolations and so there's this anxiety to bring it under control," said Michael Davis, a law professor and Tibet expert at the University of Hong Kong. Davis said he expected the government to continue to take a repressive and conservative approach. "The new leadership will be particularly anxious not to have any of these problems blow up in their face."

Nearly 100 Tibetan monks, nuns and lay people have set themselves on fire since 2009, calling for Beijing to allow greater religious freedom and the return from exile of the Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

"I think self-immolations and all of this suggest that they are not winning the hearts and minds of the Tibetan people and in fact the more repressive they are, the more resistance they encounter, so it's a kind of vicious circle," Davis said.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Tibet

Postby Dvivid » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:48 pm

HIGHLY recommend these videos! the Dalai Lama discussing modern physics, neuroscience, etc with leading scientists, filmed this week. They have added modern scientific study at the monastic school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOpVrprggG0
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Tibet

Postby Dvivid » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:55 am

I reiterate, these sessions are amazing. This one was my favorite so far. Lots of talk of energy, in quantum physics, and also within the body. And, amazing insight into the Buddhist view of things at the atomic level, and ways of thinking about matter...from 2,000 years ago!

In Buddhist terminology, Qi and Qi channels are referred to as the "winds", and points are "drops". There was discussion that the chakras should be investigated more closely, and that learning about these energy centers will be important going forward. And, the DL talks about his daily meditation practice for the past 50 years.

Day 2, pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKKuPmk95g
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Tibet

Postby Dvivid » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:53 pm

"My nephew self-immolated for Tibet"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/gue ... _blog.html
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Tibet

Postby Monsoon » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:53 pm

Whatever potential this young man had... is now lost forever.

This is another tragic waste of life. The self-immolations have virtually no main stream impact of note. The young men who are consigning themselves to the fire are beginning to resemble nothing more than a fanatical buddhist equivalent of a muslim suicide bomber (only with less casualties).

I feel very sorry for the family who have to live with the aftermath of this unneccessary act.

There is no justification for this.
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Qigong / Chi Kung

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

cron