How do I lead Chi

[JeffK]

I'm doing the 8 Pieces of Brocade and on the fourth piece it says to use your Yi to lead the Qi from the Lower Dan Tian to the Bubbling Well and Huiyin Cavity when you exhale and turn your head to either side, and then lead the Qi back to the Lower Dan Tian as you inhale and return your head to the front. Am I just suppose to focus on those points? For example, when I turn my head to the side and exhale do I put my attention on the Bubbling Well points and Huiyin Cavity and as I turn my head back to the center do I return my attenion back to the Dan Tian?

[yeniseri]

I'm doing the 8 Pieces of Brocade and on the fourth piece it says to use your Yi to lead the Qi from the Lower Dan Tian to the Bubbling Well and Huiyin Cavity when you exhale and turn your head to either side, and then lead the Qi back to the Lower Dan Tian as you inhale and return your head to the front. Am I just suppose to focus on those points? For example, when I turn my head to the side and exhale do I put my attention on the Bubbling Well points and Huiyin Cavity and as I turn my head back to the center do I return my attenion back to the Dan Tian?

People have varied views of qi and rarely should they met! Here's one view!
1. We all possess qi
2. No need to "raise' or 'lower' qi
3. We can 'better' out 'quality' of qi through right choice, right action and right mind
4. Union of #3 is xin i,e, 'mind' and 'heart'. WIth xin, we are most of the way "there'

Just allow the movements to become part of your being and if you have proper instruction along the way, baduanjin will serve you well. Personally, the concept of leading qi is problematic because qi and therefore blood always goes where it should and rarely goes contrary to its flow and that is why right conduct, right attitude and right action "assists" by levelling out 'energetic' problems.
By developing discernment, you will be able to figuer out things that you see! As an example there are many adherents to various qigong (chi gong /chee gong/ chi king, etc) out there and they follow cult like patterns of teaching that actually diminish xin and can cause psychological manifestations of diseases.

Look for kindness and compassionate teaching that allows for you to grow and think for yourself!
Remember that qigong has its own mindfield!

[caesar]

As an example there are many adherents to various qigong (chi gong /chee gong/ chi king, etc) out there and they follow cult like patterns of teaching that actually diminish xin and can cause psychological manifestations of diseases.

Look for kindness and compassionate teaching that allows for you to grow and think for yourself!

Sometimes the world out there of healing yourself with eastern kind of meditation systems scares me. I've been to kind and compassionate teachers and got myself in trouble anyway. I guess it's a part of developing discernment.

[joeblast]

I'm doing the 8 Pieces of Brocade and on the fourth piece it says to use your Yi to lead the Qi from the Lower Dan Tian to the Bubbling Well and Huiyin Cavity when you exhale and turn your head to either side, and then lead the Qi back to the Lower Dan Tian as you inhale and return your head to the front. Am I just suppose to focus on those points? For example, when I turn my head to the side and exhale do I put my attention on the Bubbling Well points and Huiyin Cavity and as I turn my head back to the center do I return my attenion back to the Dan Tian?

A similar concept, "exhale to," "inhale from" the yongquan. Or laogung in the palms. Of course at first you will not have the frame of reference to understand it, so it must be gradually gained by repetition and close honest self observation.

If you have tried embryonic breathing, lower dantien breathing before, this is a good way to begin to gain the frame of reference - by harmonizing the physical mechanisms of breath you calm down other bodily processes and then are more able to "pick out other signals, since you have decreased the amount of noise." Lots of these things, to take notice, you are simply separating signal from noise.

Here's something you can try since its winter - go to a fire or even turn the car on and let the heaters get warm, hold your palms up, and "inhale the heat." Following the energetic channels in the arms it will go deep by the time it gets to the elbow (which for me makes it pop out elsewhere, i.e. the middle of the back around t5 where the channels meet.") Its a great way to explore the channels but also with a little practice you can warm your whole body up pretty quickly with this method - once I get the heat shivered out my back a few times I'm pretty darn toasty It is possible to do the same just with dantien breathing.

[Dvivid]

For a beginner, the practice should be simplified.

As you inhale, you are drawing energy inward: into your lungs, in through the surface of the skin toward the bone marrow, and in through the five gates (hands, feet, and face).

As you exhale, you are leading energy outward: out of the lungs, out from the bone marrow to the surface of the skin, reinforcing the wei qi (guardian energy), and out through the five gates.

To LEAD the qi, remember this. The YI leads the Qi. Energy follows consciousness.

Yeniseri:

1. We all possess qi
2. No need to "raise' or 'lower' qi
3. We can 'better' out 'quality' of qi through right choice, right action and right mind
4. Union of #3 is xin i,e, 'mind' and 'heart'. WIth xin, we are most of the way "there'

I agree with your points, but I think it needs to be more clear:

1. We do not possess energy. We ARE energy. The human body is a living bioelectromagnetic field. Qi is not a special type of energy within the body. ALL of the energy in your 100 trillion cells is Qi.

2. The GONG in QiGong is all about spending time/effort to increase your energy. By concentrating on the dan tian (energy centers), you condition the tissues of the body to circulate and store more energy. This takes concentrated time and repeated effort.

3. The center of the abdomen is where we store the quantity of Qi. The center of the brain is responsible for the quality of our Qi manifestation.

If you are truly on the path of cultivating energy, then you have to start thinking: why? Ultimately, the answer is that you want more energy to benefit yourself, and those around you. For this, you need to become 100% honest. A truthful person who is present in the moment and not deluded or pretending.

Some of your energy comes from inhaling air (ions). Some of your energy comes from metabolizing food (and fat). So, where does your food come from? It is pure? Are you buying organic local food? Or are you spending money on food from a foreign country which has been poisoned with pesticides? Right action means you are not creating bad karma or harming others. If you spend money on some food that requires an airplane to poison the air, and pesticides to poison the farmworkers, the soil, the water, and anyone who consumes it, how can this be right action? That is bad karma, and bad energy you are eating. Think clearly about your choices in life and don't lie to yourself about the consequences of your actions.

4. Your emotions must remain neutral, no matter what situation you are in. Of course, you can enjoy life, and you will suffer hardships. Your mind must remain clear and focused, and do not allow your life events to affect your energy detrimentally. Do not internalize the stress in your life. It is a choice.

I hope this helps.

[pete5770]

I'll play the devils advocate on this one and suggest that you ask whomever is teaching you this thing called Chi to actually demonstrate it to you in a meaningfull way and one in which YOU actually believe it. I have never seen anyone demonstrate anything that I would call Chi. I've seen 100's of people do 100's of Chi excercises but not a single demonstration of anything useful
other than some excercise value. Sort of begs the question of not "How do I...." but "Where and what is this thing they call Chi?". As an example, I once was complaining of a sore back at Tai Chi class. One of the students who claimed to "know" Qigong came up to me and said "Let me help". He then proceced to rub his palms together briskly and press them to my back. They were warm, of course, and it did feel OK but when he said "There, nothing like a little Chi to help ease the pain", well, I know what I thought but won't repeat it here.

[yeniseri]

There is a commntary of/about men saying they love god they cannot see but hating the man right next to them to the effect that leading qi/chi, though I have heard it, heard about it, read about it, I do not take it literally. I know some of my teachers did use the word but based on practice, one's "intention" is the seed that allows qi to be 'purified' or 'degraded' based on the outward behavioural externalization of thought, wood, and deed.

I can see, why, based on feedback (positive, though its intent is otherwise), why I do not have many students (popular) because of comments like these. Leading qi is a trap (my own view) while saying the content/intent of thought, word and deed does lead qi!

[Brian]

I'll play the devils advocate on this one and suggest that you ask whomever is teaching you this thing called Chi to actually demonstrate it to you in a meaningfull way and one in which YOU actually believe it. I have never seen anyone demonstrate anything that I would call Chi. I've seen 100's of people do 100's of Chi excercises but not a single demonstration of anything useful
other than some excercise value. Sort of begs the question of not "How do I...." but "Where and what is this thing they call Chi?". As an example, I once was complaining of a sore back at Tai Chi class. One of the students who claimed to "know" Qigong came up to me and said "Let me help". He then proceced to rub his palms together briskly and press them to my back. They were warm, of course, and it did feel OK but when he said "There, nothing like a little Chi to help ease the pain", well, I know what I thought but won't repeat it here.

You should look at the chinese character that denotes Qi/Chi....it consists of 3 parts...1. Steam rising...2. cooking pot and 3. rice cooking. The whole taken together represents 'energy'....not just that associated with QiGong or Taiji...but in a broader sense, for eg, the word for 'weather' is Tian Qi or Heaven Energy. According to chinese philosophy this energy is everywhere in the universe...it is what drives/powers the cosmos.
Heat is energy and looking at the character for Qi we see this represented by the boiling pot and steam rising.....so, your friend above was not off the mark by saying what he did in relation to 'a little Chi to ease the pain'.
You have to think outside of the box when it comes to energy, in any of its forms, heat, light, magnetic, etc....and even more so when you encounter a form of energy that we (scientifically) cannot quite grasp just yet.
So don't just dismiss something on the grounds that it hasn't yet been satisfactorily explained or demonstrated to you....if we all did this we would never have some of the great inventions/technology that we have today....they would have been lost to likes of your way of thinking.

[Josh Young]

I know some of my teachers did use the word but based on practice, one's "intention" is the seed that allows qi to be 'purified' or 'degraded' based on the outward behavioural externalization of thought, wood, and deed...
Leading qi is a trap (my own view) while saying the content/intent of thought, word and deed does lead qi!

Excellent thoughts.

Demonstration of qi: you just read this line.

Your Yi directs Qi.
The action of mind demonstrates Qi constantly.
It is not an energy that has caloric value or a measurable physical force.
It is not the charge of the axial ions or of electrical activity of the neurons.

It is too simple to explain with words.
Yi directs Qi

what more do you need to know?
Every thought, deed, word, and action involve this process.
if you had an amazing power to manifest things in a way
then you can manifest a lack of power
simply through doubting it

there is no need to give credit to the absurd, no need for extra thoughts for or against any concept. Calm the mind and all becomes apparent. Language becomes ridiculous in terms of understanding and explanation. It over complicates this matter and is not subtle or simple enough.

[pete5770]

I'll play the devils advocate on this one and suggest that you ask whomever is teaching you this thing called Chi to actually demonstrate it to you in a meaningfull way and one in which YOU actually believe it. I have never seen anyone demonstrate anything that I would call Chi. I've seen 100's of people do 100's of Chi excercises but not a single demonstration of anything useful
other than some excercise value. Sort of begs the question of not "How do I...." but "Where and what is this thing they call Chi?". As an example, I once was complaining of a sore back at Tai Chi class. One of the students who claimed to "know" Qigong came up to me and said "Let me help". He then proceced to rub his palms together briskly and press them to my back. They were warm, of course, and it did feel OK but when he said "There, nothing like a little Chi to help ease the pain", well, I know what I thought but won't repeat it here.

You have to think outside of the box when it comes to energy, in any of its forms, heat, light, magnetic, etc....and even more so when you encounter a form of energy that we (scientifically) cannot quite grasp just yet.
So don't just dismiss something on the grounds that it hasn't yet been satisfactorily explained or demonstrated to you....if we all did this we would never have some of the great inventions/technology that we have today....they would have been lost to likes of your way of thinking.

I don't "dismiss" anything. I simply ask the people who make these claims to prove it to me.
Actually I'm sort of a believer in that old saying "anythings possible" but I refuse to believe anything on someones say so. Show me the reality of it, the real world application, it's usefullness to man. In other words, do something with it that people can see and feel. not empty promises. I don't believe in Chi any more than I believe in witchcraft, ghosts, zombies, aliens, turning lead into gold, magic, wizards, ESP, the list goes on and on. However if you can produce a ghost or any of the above and I feel that it is authentic, well, then you MAY have a believer.

[Josh Young]

Show me the reality of it, the real world application,

However if you can produce a ghost or any of the above and I feel that it is authentic, well, then you MAY have a believer.

This is highly irrational.

You ask for proof and admit that if you get it you might not believe it anyway.
Are you aware of how closed minded that is?
It is likes saying that evidence does not even matter to you at all.
Why even ask for it when you admit that it may not matter to you anyway?
You have made up your mind and closed it long ago.

You are not searching for proof or evidence at all, almost everything you say is dismissive.

[pete5770]

Show me the reality of it, the real world application,

However if you can produce a ghost or any of the above and I feel that it is authentic, well, then you MAY have a believer.

This is highly irrational.

You are not searching for proof or evidence at all, almost everything you say is dismissive.

Now you're getting the hang of it. Think about it. I'm pretty much the only doubter on this forum.
That should tell you all you need to know about me. Like I say, think about it.

[Brian]

I don't "dismiss" anything. I simply ask the people who make these claims to prove it to me.
Actually I'm sort of a believer in that old saying "anythings possible" but I refuse to believe anything on someones say so. Show me the reality of it, the real world application, it's usefullness to man. In other words, do something with it that people can see and feel. not empty promises. I don't believe in Chi any more than I believe in witchcraft, ghosts, zombies, aliens, turning lead into gold, magic, wizards, ESP, the list goes on and on. However if you can produce a ghost or any of the above and I feel that it is authentic, well, then you MAY have a believer.

Transmutation of lead into gold isn't just theoretically possible - it has been achieved! Glenn Seaborg, 1951 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, succeeded in transmuting a minute quantity of lead (possibly en route from bismuth, in 1980) into gold. There is an earlier report (1972) in which Soviet physicists at a nuclear research facility near Lake Baikal in Siberia accidentally discovered a reaction for turning lead into gold when they found the lead shielding of an experimental reactor had changed to gold.
Today particle accelerators routinely transmute elements. A charged particle is accelerated using electrical and/or magnetic fields. In a linear accelerator, the charged particles drift through a series of charged tubes separated by gaps. Every time the particle emerges between gaps, it is accelerated by the potential difference between adjacent segments. In a circular accelerator, magnetic fields accelerate particles moving in circular paths. In either case, the accelerated particle impacts a target material, potentially knocking free protons or neutrons and making a new element or isotope. Nuclear reactors also may used for creating elements, although the conditions are less controlled.

Somehow I feel though your closed mind still will not accept even this.....you must have a very difficult life....I feel for you...so the next time I attend the Witch's coven with my ghost, zombie and alien friends we will all do some magic and via ESP....heal you!!

[joeblast]

quark interaction on the weak lagrangian is how it happens - there's a constant stream of solar neutrinos pouring through us that we never feel because they do not react electromagnetically...if one can make himself *that* energetically coherent, there is a mechanism for the weak interaction right there.

*shrugs*

[pete5770]

I don't "dismiss" anything. I simply ask the people who make these claims to prove it to me.
Actually I'm sort of a believer in that old saying "anythings possible" but I refuse to believe anything on someones say so. Show me the reality of it, the real world application, it's usefullness to man. In other words, do something with it that people can see and feel. not empty promises. I don't believe in Chi any more than I believe in witchcraft, ghosts, zombies, aliens, turning lead into gold, magic, wizards, ESP, the list goes on and on. However if you can produce a ghost or any of the above and I feel that it is authentic, well, then you MAY have a believer.

Transmutation of lead into gold isn't just theoretically possible - it has been achieved! Glenn Seaborg, 1951 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, succeeded in transmuting a minute quantity of lead (possibly en route from bismuth, in 1980) into gold. There is an earlier report (1972) in which Soviet physicists at a nuclear research facility near Lake Baikal in Siberia accidentally discovered a reaction for turning lead into gold when they found the lead shielding of an experimental reactor had changed to gold.
Today particle accelerators routinely transmute elements. A charged particle is accelerated using electrical and/or magnetic fields. In a linear accelerator, the charged particles drift through a series of charged tubes separated by gaps. Every time the particle emerges between gaps, it is accelerated by the potential difference between adjacent segments. In a circular accelerator, magnetic fields accelerate particles moving in circular paths. In either case, the accelerated particle impacts a target material, potentially knocking free protons or neutrons and making a new element or isotope. Nuclear reactors also may used for creating elements, although the conditions are less controlled.

Somehow I feel though your closed mind still will not accept even this.....you must have a very difficult life....I feel for you...so the next time I attend the Witch's coven with my ghost, zombie and alien friends we will all do some magic and via ESP....heal you!!

Good luck with building your particle accelerator / reactor.
And c'mon now, let's be truthful, you don't "feel" for me, you dislike me because I challenge your beliefs. There is one person on this forum who disagrees with your thinking and for some reason that really disturbs you. Now that's what I call a closed mind. Is it possible that there is nothing there yet you have convinced yourself otherwise? That's the real question.

[Brian]

Good luck with building your particle accelerator / reactor.
And c'mon now, let's be truthful, you don't "feel" for me, you dislike me because I challenge your beliefs. There is one person on this forum who disagrees with your thinking and for some reason that really disturbs you. Now that's what I call a closed mind. Is it possible that there is nothing there yet you have convinced yourself otherwise? That's the real question.

You flatter yourself...I certainly do not dislike you...in fact I welcome your argument as it makes everyone think in relation to how they react in this world of ours. You are not the only one who 'disagrees' on this (or any other) forum I have observed. It would be a dull world indeed if we all thought the same...where's the joy in that??
My mind is completely open...as I have not actually stated that you are wrong in your thinking...but have merely pointed out that YOU should be more opened minded.
Neither am I disturbed by what you say....your comments do not make me insecure or uneasy in any way.
I am curious though as to what, if any, martial arts experience you have...how long have you been studying...with whom....and...if you are, why do you study MA??

[pete5770]

Good luck with building your particle accelerator / reactor.
And c'mon now, let's be truthful, you don't "feel" for me, you dislike me because I challenge your beliefs. There is one person on this forum who disagrees with your thinking and for some reason that really disturbs you. Now that's what I call a closed mind. Is it possible that there is nothing there yet you have convinced yourself otherwise? That's the real question.

My mind is completely open...as I have not actually stated that you are wrong in your thinking...but have merely pointed out that YOU should be more opened minded.
Neither am I disturbed by what you say....your comments do not make me insecure or uneasy in any way.
I am curious though as to what, if any, martial arts experience you have...how long have you been studying...with whom....and...if you are, why do you study MA??

How about this? Let's both agree that we have open minds because it's obvious that we don't agree on some things. Or lets both agree to having closed minds. Either way it doesn't matter as we are who we are.
For some reason this Chi debate reminds me of when I was child and watching The Wizard of Oz.
Not sure exactly how I said / asked it, but it went something like this "Mom, how come The Great and Powerful Oz needs Dorothy, Lion, Scarecrow, and Tin Man's help at all? They should have aked him why". Of course, the story needed them but even at that young an age I might have questioned "The Great and......" As things turned out there was no Great and Powerful Oz.
Only myth and legend and deception. In other words I don't see a problem with having an open mind to all things, however acceptance without question and proof is what P.T Barnum was taking about when he said " There is a sucker born every minute". He was a master, of sorts, of "Hoax's"

[Brian]

How about this? Let's both agree that we have open minds because it's obvious that we don't agree on some things. Or lets both agree to having closed minds. Either way it doesn't matter as we are who we are.
.
.
I don't see a problem with having an open mind to all things, however acceptance without question and proof is what P.T Barnum was taking about when he said " There is a sucker born every minute". He was a master, of sorts, of "Hoax's"

The obvious answer here is to 'agree that we disagree'.
And of course acceptance without question is the mind set that leads to a 'sheep mentality' ie, blindly following without question.

Also...you never answered my question in relation to your martial arts training, if any. Why was that, I wonder?

[pete5770]

How about this? Let's both agree that we have open minds because it's obvious that we don't agree on some things. Or lets both agree to having closed minds. Either way it doesn't matter as we are who we are.
.
.
I don't see a problem with having an open mind to all things, however acceptance without question and proof is what P.T Barnum was taking about when he said " There is a sucker born every minute". He was a master, of sorts, of "Hoax's"

The obvious answer here is to 'agree that we disagree'.
And of course acceptance without question is the mind set that leads to a 'sheep mentality' ie, blindly following without question.

Also...you never answered my question in relation to your martial arts training, if any. Why was that, I wonder?

I started Tai Chi in 1974 or 75 when I lived in Denver, Colorado. The names of my two instructors eludes me at the moment(old age I guess). One was Chinese and couldn't speak English so I guess I can be forgiven for forgetting his name. Here at my current residence in Toledo, Ohio my most recent teacher was Doctor Harold Lee, a Biology professor at the U. of Toledo. He retired some 10 or 15 years ago and moved to California and is now teaching classes out there. I took over teaching his class for a few years but I guess I just didn't have his charisma, plus I wasn't Chinese(which didn't help). I any case classes wound down like they always seem to do. I have taught some since then but nothing steady. My main focus these days is Yang Long Form but in the past I flirted with the Wu variation of Yang. Yang has been the one for me as I long ago found out that I simply don't have the time to spend on everything, so I picked Yang. I have an hour or two a day to spend on Tai Chi and then "other things" creep into
life as we know it. Cycling is a passion of mine as is playing the violin(maybe a much better word to describe my fiddle prowess would be practicing). Carnegie Hall hasn't called yet. I've been retired now for about 2 years so maybe, just maybe I can find a bit more time to devote to all 3 pursuits. Unless of course my wife has filled up the Honey-Do jar. It's always something.

[Josh Young]

it is funny Pete, but I am likely more skeptical than you are, but far more objective as well
people who have read my posts here for the last couple of years know I question just about everything and have indeed questioned qi repeatedly here.

the thing is though that qi is a somewhat generic term that has been used for many things
many of them I do not have any belief in, or disbelief in, I simply have no experience with them.

Others I do have first hand experience with, including the relationship of Yi and Qi and how intention and focus of mind can have very specific effects. I have felt a simple touch change with intention of mind, I have also done this to others. I have commonly heard some people I do some push hands with exclaim "can you feel that?" in amazement, which I dismiss by saying it is a side effect and not to be distracted from practice through chasing metaphysical concepts.

At another online site I have been debating the meaning of and existence and evidence of qi with several people in the last few days. Clearly there is some fraud out there, but there is also evidence as well for different forms and concepts of qi.

I have also recently read a study on remote viewing from 1995, made for a CIA funded research institution. The statistics and evidence is rather profound, and while the results are never 100% accurate they are peculiarly accurate. I've had several first hand experiences that might be called telepathic by some as well, though I am in general skeptical of claims of psychic powers.

I also see auras and have taught many people to do it, it is remarkably easy, children see them easily, though I have seen severe alcoholics and people who experienced significant head trauma be unable to see them. I laugh a lot at some of the new agers when they describe the aura, simply because it is so clear who does and does not see them, based upon their description. Auras are natural though, not supernatural or metaphysical. I don't believe in anything supernatural.

blind doubt is as bad as blind faith, reason should be objective, atheism is irrational, as is theism, as an absolute claim.

I don't know that God exists, but I can tell you that I pray and my prayers are answered. I don't know how it works, but often when I need or even want something I get it very quickly and it strikes me as either the universe responding to me or as the most amazing co-incidence of events that is possible.

It is said that life itself is statistically improbable, yet here we are, reality defies probability in many ways, this is not a claim of creationism, or a claim against it. I don't know how anything came to be, but here it is defying the odds.

Qi is kind of like that, not all claims are genuine, many evidences are just tricks of various types and yet there is something else as well. It is too easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Qi follows the mind, not exactly thoughts though, it is more like intent behind thoughts and focus or concentration. Your qi is being placed in doubt by the action of your yi. Don't bother with belief or disbelief, they don't matter. Tame the wild ox and you will be amazed at what it kept you from noticing.