Real Dantian - is there a false one ?

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Real Dantian - is there a false one ?

Postby monogatari » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:53 pm

In Dr. Yang's books there are multiple mentions of the 'real dantian'. I do not remember reading - so far - anything about a false one that would justify calling the other one a 'real ' one. Can someone clarify why 'real' is used ? - Thanks !
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Re: Real Dantian - is there a false one ?

Postby joeblast » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:46 pm

"false" is the qihai point that lies on the front of the abdomen. vs "real" that is at the actual center.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: Real Dantian - is there a false one ?

Postby Dvivid » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:36 pm

Yes.
http://ymaa.com/articles/basic-concepts ... gong-part2

The abdomen has layers of fat, muscle, fascia, fat, muscle, fascia: good conductors of energy, sandwiched with lesser conductors. This serves to store energy like a battery. But, because it is on the conceptional vessel, down the front of the torso (comprised of tendons), that energy will be consumed today, while you are awake. That is the false dan tian. You can build energy there, but you can't store it.

The real dan tian is behind the abdominal muscles, in the guts. It is a neural network, called the 2nd brain, which can be energized through concentration, and over time it is conditioned to hold an increasing capacity of energy.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Re: Real Dantian - is there a false one ?

Postby yeniseri » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:28 am

Tough question!
Intellectually, the whole body is 'dantian' in concept but objectively and identifiable it refers to qihai while saying that the historical locations have been labelled upper dantian (between eye lashes-3rd eye (allegedly), middle dantian (shanzhong-middle of chest) and lower dantian (qihai)

Objectively (for me) they are relative but lower dantian suffices (experientally) as an origin.
I say location is relative (depending on time of day and subjective feeling (degree of ill health, etc.
As an example, women concentrating on qihai during their menstrual period, can cause "increased/excessive bleeding" so they may refrain or limit qigong/yangshengong/daoyin practices, or perhaps rely on middle dantian. Another strategy would be massaging shenshu/mingmen area
to alleviate lower back "stiffness' (wind condition).
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Re: Real Dantian - is there a false one ?

Postby Dvivid » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:49 am

Don't be confused. Yes, all of the body's cells contain and circulate energy. The feeling of energy will change constantly. You will feel energy in various specific points, meridians, vessels, and organs...but the dan tians are very specific. They are not vague and they are not a metaphor.

The three main energy centers are:

1. Lower Real Dan Tian - located in the center of the guts. The second brain. It is a neural network in the intestines. (The False Dan Tian is in front of this area, including Qi Hai)

2. Middle Dan Tian - the diaphragm and heart, and a neural network throughout.

3. Upper Dan Tian - this is the limbic system in the center of the head, including the pineal gland or "third eye".

All three dan tians are connected and communicate instantaneously though the spinal cord.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Re: Real Dantian - is there a false one ?

Postby robertov » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:59 pm

Text-books of Mr. Yang, the abadominal breathing with the concentration of the dan tien with and without actual movement of the perineum mentioned, according to the movement of the perineum is necessary to say that Qi reaches the coccyx at the small circulation? but also necessary for the storage of Qi?

The question is valid because if the movement of the perineum qi opens the way to the tailbone would be not storing qi during respiration ... I hope the question is understood, thanks
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Re: Real Dantian - is there a false one ?

Postby joeblast » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:42 pm

the involvement of the perineum in breathing was a martial arts secret for umpteen generations ;)

dont worry about the coccyx. in order to properly do small circulation you need a ton of work put in on the fundamentals before all of the simple things create enough habit-energy and "stored potential" anyway, and it is more about cultivating the energy centers than worrying about qi flow through certain areas like the tailbone or something. investigate the timing of the perineum and note how it adds to the breath when the timing is very harmonious. dont worry so much about "storage"...a session is like plunging a sponge into a bucket of water - dunk it in and remove it quickly, it will not absorb as much as if you have patience to let it fully absorb. what you are able to "store" and the amplitudes thereof are a function of the level of stillness you are able to attain. as you cultivate, what you do is "increase the bandwidth" of the channels - this is a basic result of harmonious processes and can also be likened to habit-energy. as you cultivate, the flux density will increase - but when you are done with the yang phase of a session, forget all about storage, forget everything but breath protocol (and eventually that too) and abide in stillness, the awareness shines peacefully for the yin phase. always end a session in deep stillness.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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