Article on Unarmed Defence against Knife Attack.

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Article on Unarmed Defence against Knife Attack.

Postby Tarandus » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:57 pm

I was in a bookshop today and noticed the Journal of Asian Martial Arts (current issue). There is a very interesting, informative and useful article in it called 'The Top Ten Errors Of Martial Artists Defending Against A Blade'. Here is a link to the table of contents for the current issue. http://www.goviamedia.com/store.php?crn=205

Kind regards, T.
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Postby trimax » Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:18 am

Thanks for the post. I will definitely check the magazine out!
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Postby Tarandus » Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:42 am

Trimax: thanks for your reply. I certainly think this article is well worth checking out - particularly given the mindless street violence around in many countries today. The journal is full of other really fascinating articles and I am seriously thinking of subscribing to it, as the articles all seem to be written by top scholars and practitioners. On the article in question, I was really impressed by the sincere and thoughtful way it addressed this problem. Particular, it shows, complete with photos, how easy it is for a knife attacker to counterattack the usual barehand blocks, particulary by cutting the wrist of the defender - similar to the move 'Right Whirwind' and 'Left Whirwind' in Tai Chi Sword where parry is counterattacked with a deft slice to the wrist, which in turn is undercut, and a countercounterattack follows, with the potential result of endless 'wrist chasing'. The article also points out that the best advice is not always to try and run, as the knifeman might be faster than you, your back is then exposed, and by the time he catches up with you, you will be tired and also, psychologically, in 'flight mode' which also gives the attacker a phsychological advantage. One drawback of the article, though, is that although it is really useful on diagnosis, it's not so good at suggesting hard and fast answers to the problem, short of concentrating on real fundamentals such as posture, and advising martial artists in general to rethink their strategies. I mean to invest in Dr. Yang's book and DVD on this subject soon. One thing is clear from the article, and that is, that blocks really expose you to easy counterattack. If possible, I believe that the attacker's knife arm should be deflected and neutralised with a grab, then followed up by a counterstrike. But of course every possible strategy carries enormous risk. The article suggests aiming for a pressure point, because of the potential lethality of a knife situation, where it is absolutely essential that the attacker is completely disabled. One potentially useful move adapted from the Yang Cheng Fu Tai Chi form might be 'High Pat On Horse' (Kou Tan Ma), where the attacker's right forearm is grabbed and deflected downwards and away to the defender's left hip. The defender then strikes the opponent's shoulder at the joint with the heel of his/her right hand before completing the pulling action with a jerk which can have the effect of dislocating the opponent's shoulder. This jerking or yanking action is assisted by a weight transfer back onto the right foot, while the left foot is also drawn in with the big toe in light contact with the ground, in case a kick to the opponent's shin is also desired. I hope this helps contribute to the discussion. Kind regards, T.
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Postby trimax » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:10 am

Recently I got the book "Surviving Armed Assaults" by Lawrence A. Kane, published recently by YMAA. This book presents a lot of interesting information with statistics and scenarios where a knife attack would occur. It also discusses scenarios with gun and other weapons. If you are interested in scenarios with weapons and bare hand confrontations then this book will definitely catch your attention.
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Postby Tarandus » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:55 pm

Trimax: thanks a lot for pointing this book out to me. I will certainly invest in a copy. I don't know much about surviving gun attack except that one probably stands more chance at close range, where there is some chance that the gun arm can be deflected and neutralised with less danger of a successful counterattack than in the case of a blade. At longer range, one really doesn't have much chance, and the only option as far as I am aware, is to turn aside and minimise ones target area, keeping the arm to the side as, in effect, a bony shield for the internal organs: and pray .... In Kumar Frantzis's book on internal martial arts, though, he describes taking private lessons from a very old Chinese Master who was able to lead Kumar around the room simply by the power of his mind. This is a level of martial arts attainment even beyond pressure point strikes and conceivably has applications in gun situations in particular. But Frantzis doesn't go into the techniques involved or how to develop them. Kind regards, T.
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The realities of blades...

Postby jfraser » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:58 am

Years ago, I decided that I wanted to get more acquainted with the realities of working with and against blades. The classical 2 person practice of an overhead strike or a thrust with a big lunging step, are not realistic. Only and idot with a knife would attack these ways.

So, I found my way to Sayoc Kali, and also Professor Gaje (the hand to hand teacher for the Phillipino Marines). Some of what I learned, is that someone really trained to use a knife will not let you see it before he cuts you. Sayoc Kali does not bother with "defanging the snake", and has many "vital templates" focusing on cutting or stabbing one vital area after another. One of these templates, "3 of 9" used to be available free on their Web site. They are in Phili.

Regarding "defanging he snake", in other systems, if you grab the hand holding a knife, that hand, wrist will be quickly cut, with little muscular effort on the knife attacker's part. The next cut will be to a vital area, such as an artery, and that induces shock, and you have about one minute before you bleed to death.

One pattern what may work, is to deflect the blade carrying arm, and stike to the eyes or throat with your free arm/hand, then pin the knife holding arm to his body, while attacking repeatedly your free hand, elbow. This is something like "checking" in WC, I believe. You must control the blade from the beginning, and shock him simultaneously Disarming comes after you hurt him bad. The real problem is the guy holding it, not the blade. And 45 degree angle stepping is a vital part also, backward, or forward, depending on the situation. Stepping out of the way of a blade is more important than "blocking", and give you a second and some space to control this blade hand. The stepping needs to be practiced until it is second nature.

Cross arm blocking can follow and better control gut to throat slashing combinations (and vise versa) much better than same side blocking (my left blocking his right with a blade in his right hand). Same side blocking is called "bad hand" in Sayoc Kali.

Experienced and trained knife fighters will move in combinations or 3 's or 4's. The hardest to see and deal with are the inside to outside slash to the gut, or throat, and the spiroling motion, with the blade going at a downward angle from my ear level to his heart or throat. Good knife fighters will attack with the blade at "wierd angles" and keep coming...up and down.

Get an aluminum training blade and practice to see what works and what does not work. I think you have to know about how to use a blade, to have a chance of surviving a blade attack, when you are not armed, or if you have a blade yourself.

And they will carry more than one blade, on different parts of their bodies. If they loose one, out comes another. And they are skillful at switching hands, and throwing blades from short and meduim distances.

You will get cut, the key is where you get cut. Know where vital areas are such as your arteries, heart and kidneys, and how to protect them.
There are cuts that put you out [i]now[/i], and ones that take about a minute. The later are artery cuts.

A neglected aspect of training in most martial art schools is against the good ol' American swinging Baseball bat. And that is a very common weapon of attack in many American cities.

Best regards,
James :)[color=darkblue][/color]
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Postby Tarandus » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:30 am

James:
Thanks very much for this very insightful contribution. I have found your comments very useful, and they have given me a lot to think about. The only time I personally have received any instruction in knife fighting was when I was a boy, doing fencing at school. Our fencing master had been in special forces and one afternoon, by way of a change, he brought in some commando knives and said he would spend the afternoon showing us some basic tecnhiques in those rather than in foil fencing. He made us adopt a frontal stance, not like the side-on position in fencing, and made us crouch really low, with the body bent forward so the trunk was parallel to the ground and thus the abdomen was concealed, thus minimising the target area. He then instructed us in feinting - passing the knife rapidly from one hand to the other to catch the opponent off guard and plunge the blade in from the side he was least expecting it. But he didn't mention anything about unarmed defence, and the tactics basically just consisted of a surprise first strike with rapid hand to hand shifts. I am going to take a copy of your posting and refer to it again in future. Thanks again, T.
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unarmed knife defense...

Postby jfraser » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:51 am

T,
I am glad you found my comments useful. The Chinese have their ways and methods, but they are kept secret. There are a couple of DVD's available on Chinese methods at www.chinafrominside.com.

As far as knife work goes the Philippinos (Kali), Silat, and Systema have it "down" and are relatively open with their instruction. Carrying 6 or 8 blades was a common practice in the Filipino jungle. Switching hands with a knife takes much on-going practice, and can be very dangerous, especially when your life depends on the having possession of the knife.

Sayoc Kali uses natural reflex reactions with their cutting statagies.
For example, if the opponent's hands are high and the throat is "closed", they will cut a horizontal C cut below the naval, which will bring his hands down to hold his guts in, and that opens the door to the arteries in the throat. and vise versa.

A blade in the kidney causes body paralysis, and can be done from the front.

In practicing cutting arteries, especially in the upper body, the non-knife holding hand needs to act as a shield against blood spurting into your eyes, blinding you. With artery cuts, the opponent still has time to kill you, about one minute, and that is worth keeping in mind.

45 degree stepping while parring, or blocking is critical, and I have not figured out how this works with the various forms of Tai Chi, and the essentially forward and back stepping motions in the forms with which I am familiar. I understand from reading Dr. Yang, that much of the stepping in Tai Chi is hidden or masked. My sense is that some of the stepping taught in the forms, may even be the opposite of how the real stepping is done. For example stepping up while holding a ball, like a defense against a gut or groin kick, makes no sense to me. Stepping back, and to a 90 degree angle to the side does make sense to me, with holding a ball posture as a kick defense and counter.

Some Silat schools say the unarmed defend against an unarmed attack, and against the knife attack need to be the same, and with as little fine motor movement as possible. Otherwise the training is too complex, and not useful. The stepping is the same, in my experience, with Silat. Maybe they are right.

Best regards,
J :) ames
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Postby Tarandus » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:00 pm

James: I'm not familiar with Dr Yang's Yang Ban Hou form, as I do the Yang Cheng Fu form. In the latter, the only times you are stepping forward in the ball hold position is after Ti Shou Shang Shih ('Lift Hands'), but this is only after forming the ball hold with the weight on the back foot (the left hand corresponds to a forearm deflection and grab, the right hand to sweeping away a kick). From here, one then steps forward still in the ball hold position, at 45 degrees, and this corresponds to shoulder strike with the right shoulder. Then one turns more to the left to execute Pai Hao Liang Shih ('White Crane Spreads Its Wings). Otherwise, in the Yang Cheng Fu form, the ball hold postures are all Yin, or defensive, the weight on the back foot, preparatory to then stepping forward into an offensive position such as Ward Off Left/Right. Their are plenty of 45 degree, or more or less, 45 degree steps, as well, as in Lu Shi Au Pu ('Brush Knee') and Ye Mah Feng Tung ('Part Horse's Mane). I've tried to access the website you mentioned, but unfortunately, the link doesn't work, so I'll try a google search under that name later this evening. Once again, thanks a lot for all these tips. Some of them make grisly reading, but in these days of so much street violence, one has to contemplate these sorts of emergencies dispassionately, and not be squeamish, in my view. Kind regards, T.
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Postby SunTzu » Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:57 pm

I don't mean to discourage you all by this, but ...

A friend of mine, who's specialty in martial arts was knife fighting was knifed down and killed in the process by a speed junkie years back over the outcome of a football match.

I don't know much about knife fighting, but remember this.

- As mentioned above, someone "showing" his blade before using it is probably hesitating to use it in the first place, but at the very least gives you an opportunity/advantage.

- If you are harassed by someone with a knife, and you get a chance (like above), show no mercy and break his whole body. It's him or YOU.

- DON'T WAIT FOR HIM TO ATTACK !!! Go straight for the vitals as soon as you notice a weapon


Mods: feel free to adjust this post where it needs editing or simply delete it, this is my point of view though.
Do not try !

Do, or do not !
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Response to Sun Tzu.

Postby jfraser » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:07 am

Sun Tzu,

I certainly would not support or suggest that your last post be edited, or adjusted.
Your posts and responses are very valuable, and you have a lot of experience.

I hear what you are saying about your friend, and your points are well taken.

Best regards,
James
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Re: Response to Sun Tzu.

Postby SunTzu » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:20 am

jfraser wrote:Sun Tzu,

I certainly would not support or suggest that your last post be edited, or adjusted.
Your posts and responses are very valuable, and you have a lot of experience.

I hear what you are saying about your friend, and your points are well taken.

Best regards,
James


Thanks for understanding. What I meant to say was, it might be against the forum rules to suggest to off an attacker. And maybe even illegal to talk about it on the net. I don't know about that, so I thought it would be wise to include some kind of apology beforehand.

Even so, I would kill him for sure if given a chance. I have little patience for cowards with weapons, and not afraid to do hard time for it either.
Do not try !

Do, or do not !
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Response to Sun Tzu.

Postby jfraser » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:33 am

Again, your points are well taken.
Maybe T. can comment on the legalities?

James
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Postby Tarandus » Mon May 07, 2007 4:38 pm

James: I've only just noticed that this thread has continued recently, so please accept my apologies for not taking up your suggestion about a response earlier. Basically, the position in English law is that private defence will excuse crimes against the person or property, provided the force used is necessary to avoid the attack and is reasonable. In the case of a mistaken belief that there is a need for defence, the accused will be excused only if the belief is reasonable. At common law there used to be rules as to the duty to retreat if possible before acting in defence. It is not clear, as I understand the position, whether those rules remain or have been replaced by section 3(1) of the Criminal Law Act 1967. In the particular case of a charge of Murder, the accused is entitled to be acquitted if killing was carried out in self-defence or prevention of violence. Furthermore, if provocation is proved, the jury may be entitled to convict of manslaughter instead of murder. There is a 'reasonableness' test in relation to provocation. According to section 3 of the Homicide Act 1957,
'Where on a charge of murder there is evidence on which the jury can find that the person charged was provoked (whether by things done or by things said or by both together) to lose his self-control, the question whether provocation was enough to make a reasonable man do as he did shall be left to be determined by the jury; and in determining that question the jury shall also take into account everything both done and said according to the effect which, in their opinion, it would have on a reasonable man.'
The 'reasonable man' is one of the same age and characteristics as the accused and other characteristics relevant to how the provocation would affect him (R v Camplin (1978)).

The law in Scotland is very similar to the foregoing in terms of its results, but the case law and legislation are different in Scotland. I cannot of course, offer any information about the law in the US, except to observe that of course it is ultimately derived from English law, except, as I understand it, in the state of Louisiana, where the law is derived ultimately from French civil codes (and accordingly, ultimately from Roman Law). Curiously enough, although much of Scots Law is based on Roman Law due to the Dutch influence in the 17th century, this never affected Scots criminal law, which has its own distinctive common law and principles.

This message is provided by me for the purpose of information only, and no reliance is to be placed on it in terms of advice or for any other purpose whatsoever that may, or may not, result in proceedings arising out of any cause of action relative hereto.

Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Re: unarmed knife defense...

Postby yeniseri » Fri May 18, 2007 11:22 am

jfraser wrote:T,
I am glad you found my comments useful. The Chinese have their ways and methods, but they are kept secret.
Sayoc Kali uses natural reflex reactions with their cutting statagies.
Best regards,
J :) ames


In the spirit of hard and proper conditioning and superior discipline, any man can dominate his enemy! Even the enemy with secret training methods, which sounds comical A true secret, never gets far, will never reach those who may really need to know and thus, becomes useless, unless one sells the secret to the highest bidder. Even then if you lack the will and the discipline, of what use is the secret?

Chance favours the prepared mind!
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response to yeniseri

Postby jfraser » Sat May 26, 2007 10:20 am

While I appreciate your views on "secrets", they are a fact in most marital arts.
Perhaps TJQ may be one of the most secret, whereby, according to DR. Yang, there are about 250 martial techniques hidden in the form he teaches.
There are outdoor students, indoor students, and inner chamber students in Chinese martial arts, traditionally. Maybe one or two of the most trusted students will get the "secrets", before the master dies. This is true for Taoism and Buddhism, also.

Complex, intricate, and subtle relationships (guan shi) here in China, is almost everything. It is very different in the West, where you pay your money for a class or instruction, and expect to get your money's worth in this instruction. With traditional Kung Fu teachers, there is no money involved for teaching, if you are accepted as a student. How much your are taught depends on quan shi and many other factors. as indicated above. You may think you are getting the real thing, but that may not be true, and you most likely will not know the difference.

Maybe in the old days, when trained martial artists, were skilled thugs, that worked as caravan guards, or body guards for the elite, keeping secret what worked in their training and experience had economic and survival value.
If an enemy knew what a guard was most effective at, he could develop and train an effective counter.

Also, you may be familiar with the CMA's saying something like it takes three years for a (perspective) student to find a good master, and it takes three years for a teacher to find a good student. A good student includes ability, martial spirit (wu shen), moral character, patience, perservance, the ability to endure hardship, etc. Perhaps the following may seem harsh, but, there seems to be an attitude of "don't cast pearls before swine".

My teacher told me only about 30 % of people have wu shen. He will not show martial functions to outdoor students who do not have wu shen, nor will he show the details of the forms and movements. And in northeast and central coast of China, in my experience, teachers also consider destiny, in whether they take a student or not; no destiny, and no below the surface training, or no training at all.

There is more, but I will stop here. Maybe others can add or subtract from what I am saying.

James
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an added perspective on this topic...

Postby jfraser » Sat May 26, 2007 11:27 am

I recently looked over again Dr. Yang' book, HOW TO DEFEND YOURSELF, Effective & Practical Martial Arts Strategies, especially the knife defense section. There are some good pointers here, such as not backing up, and stepping off to an angle, or the use of a belt or perhaps your shoes against a knife. Maybe I am going out on a limb here, but there seem to be some assumptions, in the words and photos on this section of this book, with which I am uncomfortable, and may be dangerous as training practices. They are as follows:

1. There seems to be an assumption that the attacker will come at you with only one attack (a thrust, overhead stab, etc)., and that he/she will leave their arm hanging out there with a knife in hand, so you can easily grab it the attacking arm. I believe these to be a dangerous and unrealistic assumptions.

2. Blocking with the same side arm/ hand in response to a face level attack, even if you hit him, as in p. 103, photo 4-7, could stimulate a very quick follow up with the knife whereby you loose your intestines. The same side hand cannot follow a fast up/down attack quick enough to keep your guts from being cut out by a quick follow-up slash just below your navel,

3. The attacker with the knife does not attack through the defenders body, but aims at points on the defender that are about a foot in front of the defenders body. Therefore, the attacks do not show real intent to cut or thrust through the defenders body. I am not talking about speed here, in training. I am talking about the attacker exhibiting realistic intent, and distance. Who cares, if the knife stops consistently a foot in front of you? As the Aussies say, "no worries mate". This is not realistic training.

Chinese martial arts may know about the use and defense against a knife, but they are not telling anyone. If you want to know about realistic use and defense, find a Kali instructor from the Phillipines. Or, Systema has a lot to offer in this area.

Anyone have a copy of the article mentioned above, about knife defense, in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. This journal is not available here, Maybe someone would be willing to summarize the points in this article for us all.

James
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Postby Tarandus » Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:07 pm

James, sorry to take a while to reply to this, but my computer has packed up and I'm waiting to get a new one. Meantime, I only have limited time available to go on websites like this, as I have to use an internet cafe or the local library and usually, by the time I've sent all my important emails, my time's up! Anyway, if you look at my reply to Trimax near the start of this thread (i.e. my second message on this thread), you'll find my attempt there to summarise the article - and I hope that helps. Unfortunately, I don't actually have the magazine. I just stood and read it in a shop here (twice) - and tried to remember as much as I could about the points mentioned in it! Kind regards, T.
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Respone to T.

Postby jfraser » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:39 am

T,
You are certainly a gentleman, scholar, and martial artist. Thanks for getting back to me. I hope your computer problems are getting solved.

Kind regards to you, also,

James
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