Kendo vs. Fencing video.

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Kendo vs. Fencing video.

Postby Tarandus » Sun May 13, 2007 7:53 pm

Dotting around on YouTube I came across this video by chance. It shows a competition, presumably in Japan, between a Kendo swordsman and a fencer. The fencer wins - in this contest. But then again, it's just one hit, not even 'best of three'. Also, of course, there is no indication as to the relative capabilities of the two contestants in their respective sports. I haven't worked out yet how to slow down videos on YouTube and as the picture quality is really grainy, it's hard even to tell what kind of weapon the fencer is using, but I think it's probably a sabre, though it might be an epee (I can't see the hand guard clearly). But it's definitely not a foil. There are numerous comments on this contest posted on Youtube - 9 pages of them, and I just can't be bothered reading through them all. One point I would make though: if the fencer is fighting with an epee, then his strike with the side of the blade would be disallowed, as epee is a point weapon; but if it's a sabre, then his winning strike, to the Kendo swordsman's lower right hip, would be outside the target area (the whole body is a target in epee, but in sabre, only the upper half). Still, I think the video is thought-provoking. Of course, both Kendo and fencing are sports these days, but have different origins. Whereas Kendo developed out of the 'all-in' swordsmanship of the Samurai, Western fencing developed out of duelling, with all its attendant conventions. The Italian school, favouring the rapier, was the first to gain widespread popularity in England, for instance, in the Renaissance. But then the French schools, which concentrated on point weapons, seemed to prove themselves superior, hence the domination of French terms in fencing (as I understand it). Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ST1wRzfgmI

Kind regards, T.
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sometimes

Postby yeniseri » Fri May 18, 2007 11:15 am

It is the man's speed and his conditioning, regardless of the weapon he uses, that determines the outcome. The Kendo person was slow, and lacked the instinct to go forward to the target and he was always retreating.! Training strategy also figures into the equation!
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reply to T

Postby jfraser » Sat May 19, 2007 10:23 am

In addition,

The kendo "sword" was a bamboo shinnai, not even a wooden one made of oak.

And his mind and behavior reflected this (this is only a stick, not a 5 foot razor sharp blade), and that he was using the kendo sport attitude of hitting, which is asking for it, from a fencer.

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Postby Phalanxpursos » Sun May 27, 2007 3:16 pm

The fencer feinted 3 times, on the 4th he scored a point.

I've seen the video and wanted to reply to that, personally I started practicing self defense when I was 8 and when I was younger people used to compare other martial arts to eachother and estimate which one is the best. But I came to the conclusion that the artist is the deciding factor and not the martial arts and that is based upon a very simple concept, which I will try to explain.

For example:
If you put an experienced pentjak silat fighter versus an unexperienced Boxer then Pentjak Silat would win, but if you place an expert in boxing versus a beginner Pentjak Silat then boxing would win.

So to my opinion it's not about the martial arts but about the martial artist, if you want to be a good martial artist it is the best to learn more about moral values & civic virtues.

Preventing a fight is so much better than ending one.
Strategemata Liber Secundus;
"VIII: Restore Morale with Firmness"
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Postby christopher1 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:02 pm

What is the best self defense, Kendo or Fencing? I want the best self defense to practice.
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Postby Josh Young » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:50 am

Whereas Kendo developed out of the 'all-in' swordsmanship of the Samurai, Western fencing developed out of duelling, with all its attendant conventions.

Kendo devolved and bears little resemblance to the old ways of Japanese sword styles. The names and postures they use do not match the same postures by the same names in the old manuals of Yagyu, for example.

Both Kendo and fencing are weapon sports and are nearly worthless for self defense.

What is the best self defense, Kendo or Fencing? I want the best self defense to practice.

A sword for self defense?

Most people die of heart disease, they need to defend themselves from things a sword cannot help with. You are more likely to be hit by lightning than attacked by some random person. Why not carry around a lightning rod and call that self defense?

I practice Chinese swordsmanship, but the idea of using something like that to defend the self seems absurd to me. The sword does not defend, it murders, it kills by its intended use. To use a sword is to use lethal force, that is not the stuff of defending, that is the stuff of attacking.

Those who defend themselves with lethal force, deserve to die by it, and many do. For to live by murder, is to die by murder.

Both kendo and western fencing are mere sports. Both are deadly, but they are not martial art systems in any classic manner, which included swordmanship among several skills, including archery. And indeed the bow is also worthless for self defense, but excellent for a martial artist to practice.

I found that sword does give a type of martial skill that is easy to overlook. It is found in Chin Na applications. You manipulate your duifangs limbs the way one would a weapons handle, with potent results.
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Postby sonbakler » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:32 am

I really want to learn this two, kendo and fencing.

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Postby karldion » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:33 am

Yeah i really agree with you sonbakler!.. I must have a pepper spray dude!., Any idea where I can buy one?
:roll:

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Postby AnamArtin » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:30 am

Yeah i really agree with you sonbakler!.. I must have a pepper spray dude!., Any idea where I can buy one?


there's lot in the mall you can see and in the hardware stores they also sell.. also you could look up on the net for much desirable items as your self defense.. i personally uses a stun gun for my protection..

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Re:

Postby pete5770 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:24 pm

[quote="Josh Young"][/quote]
Both Kendo and fencing are weapon sports and are nearly worthless for self defense.

[quote]

So, if I know how to use, oh say a Tai Chi staff, and I get set upon by someone intent on doing me harm, it would do me no good to pick up a sturdy stick or piece of pipe because these things could be considered weapons "...and are nearly worthless for self defense." This sort of brings up the question of whether guns, knifes, rocket launchers, tanks, or even a big rock are all "... nearly worthless ....".
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Re: Kendo vs. Fencing video.

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:16 am

pete5770 wrote:
Josh Young wrote:

Both Kendo and fencing are weapon sports and are nearly worthless for self defense.


So, if I know how to use, oh say a Tai Chi staff, and I get set upon by someone intent on doing me harm, it would do me no good to pick up a sturdy stick or piece of pipe because these things could be considered weapons "...and are nearly worthless for self defense." This sort of brings up the question of whether guns, knifes, rocket launchers, tanks, or even a big rock are all "... nearly worthless ....".


mate, what did I mention about this... not worth it mate. LOL oh well... some people have no clue, but have read a LOT of stuff so their minds are full of stuff they think is real. You can't argue with them because... like i said. But I agree with you mate. Learning a weapon system is never a waste.
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Re: Re:

Postby Josh Young » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:56 pm

pete5770 wrote:So, if I know how to use, oh say a Tai Chi staff, and I get set upon by someone intent on doing me harm, it would do me no good to pick up a sturdy stick or piece of pipe because these things could be considered weapons "...and are nearly worthless for self defense." This sort of brings up the question of whether guns, knifes, rocket launchers, tanks, or even a big rock are all "... nearly worthless ....".


You seem to have misread what I was stating.
I said "
Both Kendo and fencing are weapon sports and are nearly worthless for self defense."
I did not say weapons were no good for self defense, or that they were nearly worthless, but that weapon "sports" are nearly worthless for self defense. This is because they have become sporting methods largely based upon points and do not resemble their martial ancestors.

Taiji weapon methods are quite good for self defense, as are several staff and stick weapons. Sporting systems however are not as ideal. The same issue comes up with point based sparring without weapons actually. Sporting systems can teach some martial skills but are nearly worthless for defense, specifically against a non-sporting system.

Consider modern fencing with foil, something I've done a bit of, to score a point you basically touch/hit any part of the torso, this simply will not cut it for self defense and considering that the foil is a thrust based weapon many of the moves that earn a point in fencing are worthless for self defense.
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Re: Re:

Postby pete5770 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:30 am

Josh Young wrote:
pete5770 wrote:So, if I know how to use, oh say a Tai Chi staff, and I get set upon by someone intent on doing me harm, it would do me no good to pick up a sturdy stick or piece of pipe because these things could be considered weapons "...and are nearly worthless for self defense." This sort of brings up the question of whether guns, knifes, rocket launchers, tanks, or even a big rock are all "... nearly worthless ....".


You seem to have misread what I was stating.
I said "
Both Kendo and fencing are weapon sports and are nearly worthless for self defense."
I did not say weapons were no good for self defense, or that they were nearly worthless, but that weapon "sports" are nearly worthless for self defense. This is because they have become sporting methods largely based upon points and do not resemble their martial ancestors.

Taiji weapon methods are quite good for self defense, as are several staff and stick weapons. Sporting systems however are not as ideal. The same issue comes up with point based sparring without weapons actually. Sporting systems can teach some martial skills but are nearly worthless for defense, specifically against a non-sporting system.

Consider modern fencing with foil, something I've done a bit of, to score a point you basically touch/hit any part of the torso, this simply will not cut it for self defense and considering that the foil is a thrust based weapon many of the moves that earn a point in fencing are worthless for self defense.


I'm pretty sure that if I was a good fencer I could, at the very least, keep you or an attacker at bay by simply picking up a stick or rod and using it like a foil. As a matter of fact I'm betting I could do serious damage to you with said stick. So how does that make the sport of fencing useless for self defence?
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Re: Kendo vs. Fencing video.

Postby Josh Young » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:16 am

pete5770 wrote: I'm pretty sure that if I was a good fencer I could, at the very least, keep you or an attacker at bay by simply picking up a stick or rod and using it like a foil. As a matter of fact I'm betting I could do serious damage to you with said stick. So how does that make the sport of fencing useless for self defence?


You can speculate all you want, maybe you would be able to defend yourself, but maybe not, and against who?

You can straw man my claim that it is nearly worthless for self defense into the idea that it is useless, but useless is your word not mine and I implied that fencing is indeed slightly useful for self defense, but only slightly. I don't know if you have any fencing experience, but it seems that you do not.

My fencing teacher was an Olympic athlete who had obtained Bronze and Silver. She was of the opinion it was not particularly useful for self defense and that it was quite far removed from the roots it had of dueling. Dueling is not exactly self defense either, it relates to it but is rather distinct in some ways...

Also in fencing there is a huge issue, you see the players often close the gap, this is in Kendo too, a fencing player or kendo player too close cannot be hit with the weapon, once you have closed in to the player you have evaded their weapon based attack. In terms of self defense this is a huge issue because sport fencing lacks a way to deal with this. Someone can get in close and then the sword or stick becomes a huge disadvantage and even a distraction. Against a good boxer a sport fencer is at a huge disadvantage in close range combat, while in the martial systems there is a lot devoted to how to solve this problem.

If I had a foil like sword like object and was being attacked I would never use any western fencing moves. it might be wiser to give the foil like object to my attacker and then go in close with elbow or shoulder.

My point is that sporting systems are just that and while they may be slightly useful in self defense they are nearly worthless when compared to a real martial art system.
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Re: Kendo vs. Fencing video.

Postby pete5770 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:59 am

Josh Young wrote:
pete5770 wrote: I'm pretty sure that if I was a good fencer I could, at the very least, keep you or an attacker at bay by simply picking up a stick or rod and using it like a foil. As a matter of fact I'm betting I could do serious damage to you with said stick. So how does that make the sport of fencing useless for self defence?


You can speculate all you want, maybe you would be able to defend yourself, but maybe not, and against who?

You can straw man my claim that it is nearly worthless for self defense into the idea that it is useless, but useless is your word not mine and I implied that fencing is indeed slightly useful for self defense, but only slightly. I don't know if you have any fencing experience, but it seems that you do not.

My fencing teacher was an Olympic athlete who had obtained Bronze and Silver. She was of the opinion it was not particularly useful for self defense and that it was quite far removed from the roots it had of dueling. Dueling is not exactly self defense either, it relates to it but is rather distinct in some ways...

Also in fencing there is a huge issue, you see the players often close the gap, this is in Kendo too, a fencing player or kendo player too close cannot be hit with the weapon, once you have closed in to the player you have evaded their weapon based attack. In terms of self defense this is a huge issue because sport fencing lacks a way to deal with this. Someone can get in close and then the sword or stick becomes a huge disadvantage and even a distraction. Against a good boxer a sport fencer is at a huge disadvantage in close range combat, while in the martial systems there is a lot devoted to how to solve this problem.

If I had a foil like sword like object and was being attacked I would never use any western fencing moves. it might be wiser to give the foil like object to my attacker and then go in close with elbow or shoulder.

My point is that sporting systems are just that and while they may be slightly useful in self defense they are nearly worthless when compared to a real martial art system.


C'mon, if I'm flailing away at you with a foil, even if I don't really know how to use it, I'm pretty sure you would be half whipped and half slashed to death before I was done. Not to mention "run through" a few times. All you have to do is get close, which is no problem(right?), then a quick brush knee - push and it's all over? Dream on 'cause that foil is gonna lay you open in so many places that you'll be curled up in a little ball on the ground before you know it and have marks on you that will last the rest of your life. Opps, I forgot. Anyone who would give their weapon to an attacker and then "... go in close with elbow or shoulder" is an idiot.
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Re: Kendo vs. Fencing video.

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:18 pm

interesting where this is going. Fencing may not be all that useless for self defence. I am certainly no expert, but i am quite sure that Bruce Lee researched it and absorbed some of the principles for his art.

That a bronze/silver medalist says it is useless for self defence says more about the practitioner than the practice, imo. Not everyone thinks the same way, and sport is a totally different mindset than self defence. Maybe your teacher would have a different attitude to her practice is someone who actually knew self defence taught her what it actually is. Then again, maybe not.
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Re: Kendo vs. Fencing video.

Postby Josh Young » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:04 pm

Pete all you are doing is speculating.
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Re: Kendo vs. Fencing video.

Postby pete5770 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:43 pm

Josh Young wrote:Pete all you are doing is speculating.

Let me get this straight. You're so confident in your abilites that you could give me a foil / sword / big stick / iron rod and I wouldn't be able to hurt you with them because, after all, they are only weapons and ALL you have to do is move in on me with a shoulder. A word of advice, or two, here. Get over yourself before ya get killed and you are not an action hero or in an action hero movie. Oh wait, you know Tai Chi and that makes all the difference against someone swinging an iron pipe at you. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Kendo vs. Fencing video.

Postby Josh Young » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:03 pm

pete5770 wrote:Let me get this straight. You're so confident in your abilites that you could give me a foil / sword / big stick / iron rod and I wouldn't be able to hurt you with them because, after all, they are only weapons and ALL you have to do is move in on me with a shoulder.


If you only had western fencing training, yes I would not worry about you hurting me if you had a stick. If you had a real sword it would be a bit more serious and I would flee. If I had a sword as well, and all you had was western fencing... Well good luck.

Weapons are kind of nice, but if you can't use them well they are kind of a distraction and you are better off without them assuming you have some empty hand skill.

A word of advice, or two, here. Get over yourself before ya get killed and you are not an action hero or in an action hero movie. Oh wait, you know Tai Chi and that makes all the difference against someone swinging an iron pipe at you. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, taiji does make a difference against someone attacking you with something like an iron pipe.
Chances are I would take it from you, especially if you tried to use it against me like a foil.

Now if you hit me with something like a sucker punch, sure I am screwed, but in terms of me knowing the attack is coming you would be in serious trouble. If you are an average person you have almost no chance against me even if you have a baseball bat, but you are a skilled martial artist I could lose.

You can argue and speculate, even insult if you like, but yeah western fencing systems are not that great for self defense, nor is kendo for that matter. Having had lessons in both I am not speaking from total inexperience. Sure weapons are nice, but the controversy here is not about weapons , it is about weapons systems and this difference between sport fighting systems and systems concerned with survival in martial combat.

I have a lot of weapons training Pete. The idea of facing you while you wield an iron pipe totally amuses me. If you can beat me it would make my day, even if you kill me, I love to be defeated and you would have earned it, which pleases me.

However if you wield a weapon like you wield words... then you will only make hasty mistakes in estimating those you encounter.

If you like we can do some weapons work or push hands some time, friendly competition would be best, it would be a lot of fun. If you even go to California, Montana or Utah let me know and you can test your theory about this subject.
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Re: Kendo vs. Fencing video.

Postby pete5770 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:27 pm

Josh Young wrote:
pete5770 wrote:Let me get this straight. You're so confident in your abilites that you could give me a foil / sword / big stick / iron rod and I wouldn't be able to hurt you with them because, after all, they are only weapons and ALL you have to do is move in on me with a shoulder.


If you only had western fencing training, yes I would not worry about you hurting me if you had a stick. If you had a real sword it would be a bit more serious and I would flee. If I had a sword as well, and all you had was western fencing... Well good luck.

Weapons are kind of nice, but if you can't use them well they are kind of a distraction and you are better off without them assuming you have some empty hand skill.

A word of advice, or two, here. Get over yourself before ya get killed and you are not an action hero or in an action hero movie. Oh wait, you know Tai Chi and that makes all the difference against someone swinging an iron pipe at you. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, taiji does make a difference against someone attacking you with something like an iron pipe.
Chances are I would take it from you, especially if you tried to use it against me like a foil.

Now if you hit me with something like a sucker punch, sure I am screwed, but in terms of me knowing the attack is coming you would be in serious trouble. If you are an average person you have almost no chance against me even if you have a baseball bat, but you are a skilled martial artist I could lose.

You can argue and speculate, even insult if you like, but yeah western fencing systems are not that great for self defense, nor is kendo for that matter. Having had lessons in both I am not speaking from total inexperience. Sure weapons are nice, but the controversy here is not about weapons , it is about weapons systems and this difference between sport fighting systems and systems concerned with survival in martial combat.

I have a lot of weapons training Pete. The idea of facing you while you wield an iron pipe totally amuses me. If you can beat me it would make my day, even if you kill me, I love to be defeated and you would have earned it, which pleases me.

However if you wield a weapon like you wield words... then you will only make hasty mistakes in estimating those you encounter.

If you like we can do some weapons work or push hands some time, friendly competition would be best, it would be a lot of fun. If you even go to California, Montana or Utah let me know and you can test your theory about this subject.


You know, I'm inclined to believe you. Even if I was a master swordsman I doubt I could cut through that ego. You win. I'm simply not worthy. :oops: :oops:
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