MMA vs. Traditional...again

Discuss sparring, training applications in a competition environment, or even in real-life (fighting, self-defence). Please no violence!
And stay on topic.

Moderators: nyang, Dvivid, Inga

Postby BaguaMonk » Mon May 30, 2005 6:38 am

You are very right. I was the same way as a little kid. I remember I had started training in MA since i was pretty much born. I was loved by mom, taught everything by her, and not only just "told" but made to "understand" why moral restraint was right. In otherwords, good manners. I remembere I had a cousin who was in TKD< but was the biggest bully I had ever encountered, he caused some emotional trauma perhaps earlier in my life, he wasl ike the Devil Incarnate. But never did I result to the same methods, or violence as he did, until one day I just snapped. Usually, I would get hit on, pulled, verbally and emotionally abused and I would go tell both my parents, and his, the worst part....they didn't believe me, and even if my mom did, ,there is nothing she could do. It was the worst feeling of helplessness. One day, he almost broke my finger, he kept putting my pain threasholds to a whole new level and I really didn't do much but yell, ask him to stop etc. Until finally, I snapped. I shoved my fingers into his eye, with the absolute intent of ripping his eye out. I was about 7 at the time btw. It felt strangely good, and ever since he's been scared of me (he's like 2x bigger than me now). It was moments like these that taught me to be wary of my own abilities and agression that lied within. I was young, so I didn't know much about standing up for myself, especially because my mom was a warm, loving person and I grew up mostly without a dad. So it was through experience that I learned how to balance myself out, and stand up for myself in better ways.

Even though I haven't been through things like war, or exposed to violence long periods of time. Moments like these in my life alone (alot of which I did not mention) have led me to encourage a peaceful, and restraining side in martial arts. Look at how the UFC has grown, its not all bad, but the image is still what people want to see...two primitively trying to get the best of eachother..for money. You have movie stars encouraging, and loving these things. Heck even I like to watch it, a sign that humans still have (mostly men in the fighting aspect) a very aggressive, and destructive side to ourselves.
"Absolute truth is obtained when the mind achieves complete stillness, the ego and thought are like shackles and chains, blinding you from the obvious truth"
BaguaMonk
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:32 pm

Postby ECBlongfistaz » Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:41 pm

another awesome post BM. I thik it realy illustrates what all the TMA proponents are trying to get across both on the side of dicipline and control beng so importnat and on the side of teaching people violence without contraint. Even under the terms "self defence" or "competition." Now i masure that there are some peopl who say that bad American karate or TKD can't really do THAT much to hurt sonmeone HEHEHE, but like BMs story without the TMA martial morality they teach that violence is okay. Sure those of us who have trained for years might be safe from those trained bullies, but what about those who don't or haven't. For me it seems like there really is no debate between which is better TMAs or MMAs becasue the importnat part isn't about technuiqe, i mean you can only move the human body in a finite number of ways so eventually most style start looking alike but what they teach on top of the technuiqes make or break the style in terms of worth.
ECBlongfistaz
Forum Regular
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:41 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Postby Tandem Car Park » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:06 am

I have to respectfully disagree with much said here, and it is painfully obvious that those here trying to generalize MMA practitioners as brawlers have never stepped up and sparred one.[/quote]
Tandem Car Park
Forum User
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:46 am

Postby John Noonan » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:21 am

MMAers are far from street thug brawlers. There's a hell of alot of technique involved in what they do. The reason why they may look like they're just wailing away with no technique is because fights never go as planned. Having the intention of stopping an attacker while maintaining perfect form is not enough to keep you from getting taken down.

And morality is in a person, not in a style.
Fighting Style: The One Style, to rule them all

Frodo: The letters, it's some form of subtitle.
Gandalf: It is the language of Miramax, a dubbing that I will not utter here.
Frodo: Miramax!
-Quote from Crouching Smeagol, Hidden Gollum
John Noonan
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:10 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Postby ECBlongfistaz » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:43 am

ok people should really try and read the posts before they go and get all defensive and when they respond should really try to respond to the topic dicussed. No one ever said that MMa folks aren't talented fighters or whatever, no one really cares that they have tehnuiqes every one has technuiqes and everyone has good ones too. No was talking about whether or not the mma people would win or be more effective, the last page or so was all about teaching technuiqes, effective or not without explicitly teaching some sort of marital morality. The characterazation of mma peopl as brawlers is more to show the difference between their philosophie(s) (sp?) and the Traditional stuff then anything else.
More importnatly the fact the the response was "oh yeah, if you think that MMA etc are a certain way, then why don't you spare one of them." really just further characterizes the whole "might makes right" attitude of the mma "brawler." The preceeding posts were trying to illustrate that TMA though maybe not as effective in the short term or to bound by form and tradition etc. are better becasue they explicitly teach MORE then just technuiqes. it is the non-technuiqes aspect that is under disscussion here, and that peopl are syahing the MMAs seem to be lacking, and agian what a response that says if i can beat you in fight your point of view is invalidated jsut reinforces.
ECBlongfistaz
Forum Regular
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:41 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Postby DOM » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:32 am

I am sure there is always an exception to the rule.But intill I see the majority of mma or brazilan jj,, show respect,curtiesy,and restraint for their opponants than I will always feel there just thugs.Sorry thats the way it is.These are the same reasons I do not like kick boxing or boxing.there great entertainment but thats it.I would never recommend someone to practice them.They teach great fighting spirit,teckneacks and hard training but do little to develope the pearson and to teach them morality.This not to say that there is not other martial arts schools that advacate voilance and are thugs,because there are a great number of them.I even attended one school like this and had to leave for such reasons.This guy claimes to be tradition chinies martial arts with three very well known and respect masters as his instructors.He even has there pictures on the front wall of his kwoon and has certificats certifing him as an instructor.He also has them in for semminars.Yet he is one of the worst thugs in the martial arts I have incountered.So see this has nothing to do with the style really.It is more of a school by school isue.It just seems to be more prevalant in the mixed martial arts.But this mite not be the case,maybe it has more to do with the mma having so much media attention.If this guy and others like him had media attention like the mma.Peaple would feel the same about kung fu and karate.In fact karate was looked at in the same way when it first started to get attention here in the states.
DOM
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 358
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:17 am
Location: NEW JERSEY

Postby Tandem Car Park » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:28 pm

And the ignorance continues...

Some people look to learn how to fight in a martial arts school. If you need to go to a martial arts school to learn morality or a sense of honor, then that speaks more for your parents than it does the particular martial art you practice.

I come from a traditional background. My martial arts training began in childhood training in Kempo Karate, and then continued with training in Ba Gua Zhang and Aikido. There was far more pig-headedness and superiority complexes in those schools than in my boxing gym and brazilian jiu-jitsu school.

When you train to actually fight, you bond with training partners. They see you at your most vulnerable and vice-versa. It is impossible to keep any type of ego because even the best guys get beat regularly in training. It's hard to be egotistical when you lose all the time. It's hard to be egotistical when you realize that there are many people who can handle you with ease and even the people you handle with ease catch you every so often and teach you a lesson. Some people see MMA'ers as egotistical because they want to say this or that works in fighting to which they are usally told "prove it". Most people don't like that when they know they can't.

Not only is the destruction of ego a valuable training tool, but done right, and MMA is very much like a Buddhist exercise. All thought of self is gone while in the ring. There is an absence of all thought. You are just on auto-pilot with your mind, body, and spirit acting as one. You didn't even know an openning was there, but you are already moving to exploit it. I know many of you idolize Bruce Lee, and as he says "It happens all by itself." You live in the moment. No thoughts or worries enter your mind. You are singularly focussed with every ounce of being on the moment at hand and letting your skills and training take you along for the ride.

Almost every activity or sport can have these principles applied to them. Snowboarding, surfing, basketball, etc. If you need somebody to dictate to you how to find inner peace through physical exercise or teach you how to be oral, then I feel bad for you.

I joined this message board because I was moving into the area of a YMAA school and wanted to see what its students were like. I'm happy I did.

As for showing courtesy and respect to competition... What are you talking about? In training you shake hands before and after every match and in competition you usually hug when it's over.
Tandem Car Park
Forum User
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:46 am

Postby DOM » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:48 am

Please I am ignorant and egotistical,you talk about lose of ego and buddhist like excercises.You should go back and read you last few posts.You say some peaple look to learn to fight in a martial arts school.No kidden this is what a martial art is all about.Those who take on the responceability of teaching others deadly moves that can maim and kill peaple should dam well be teaching and demanding a very high standard of morality.Just by this statment alone shows your ignorants to how important such teachings are in the martial arts.Even the best guys get beat regulary.If so how are they the best.It's hard to be egotistical when you get lose all the time.This is not how you gain humility.Some people see MMA'ers as egotistical because they want to say this or that works in fighting to which they are usally told "prove it". Most people don't like that when they know they can't.This statment is one of a humble man.As for showing courtesy and respect to competition... What are you talking about? In training you shake hands before and after every match and in competition you usually hug when it's over.Beating some one to a pulp with the intention of killing them before some one stops it is respectfull and honarable just because you shake hands and hug afterward.Give me a brake.Listen I like to watch two fools pound the grap out of each other as much as the next guy but I have no missconceptions in thinking this is an honorable sport.And one last thing if you read the end of my post I said the lack of morality exsist in all styles.The lack of morality is not a style to style issue it is a school by school issue and a person to person issue.
DOM
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 358
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:17 am
Location: NEW JERSEY

Postby John Noonan » Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:24 am

I think everyone's getting a little defensive in here.

YMAA peeps usually have a pretty open mind. This rant post is just reflecting badly. TMA vs. MMA topics are always very volatile.
Fighting Style: The One Style, to rule them all

Frodo: The letters, it's some form of subtitle.
Gandalf: It is the language of Miramax, a dubbing that I will not utter here.
Frodo: Miramax!
-Quote from Crouching Smeagol, Hidden Gollum
John Noonan
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:10 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Postby Tandem Car Park » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:04 pm

Dom,

"Those who take on the responceability of teaching others deadly moves that can maim and kill peaple should dam well be teaching and demanding a very high standard of morality."

You don't think a choke you see in the ufc can kill somebody? You don't think an arm bar or heel hook have the potential to maim people? If so, then you are deluded. If somebody is bent on killing somebody, they will skip MA all together, get a gun/knife/bat, and sneak attack their victim. People shelling out $80/month for lessons are most likely not the notorious criminal type. There are a lot of easier ways to kill people than with your bare hands.

"This statment is one of a humble man."

It's actually a statement of an interested man. Every MMA'er I've met has been interested in what will work. If you say that "x" will work, then they want to see it because if it does, they'll want to pick up the skill. It's not like they dismiss something out of hand because it comes from a traditional martial art. If it's proven to work in unarmed combat against a 100% resisting opponent, then they'd love to see it.

"Beating some one to a pulp with the intention of killing them before some one stops it is respectfull and honarable just because you shake hands and hug afterward.Give me a brake.Listen I like to watch two fools pound the grap out of each other as much as the next guy but I have no missconceptions in thinking this is an honorable sport"

I've never beat somebody to a pulp with the intention to kill them. The "tap" is always honored whether given because of a submission hold or because you are getting pounded. We are all adults, responsible for our own actions, and capable of deciding when we've had enough. If I'm not tapping, then you assume I can take more and I'm working to escape whatever you are doing to me. If I don't tap and get hurt bbecause of it, it's my fault.

In competition, there are refs who look out for fighter safety. In that case, the ref has the ability to stop a fight despite the absence of a tap. Like all competition, there are inherent dangers which you accept to be part of that competition. Whether that be fighting, snowboarding, or surfing. It has little to do with fighting and more to do with one-on-one competition and the associated rewards with that.

"And one last thing if you read the end of my post I said the lack of morality exsist in all styles.The lack of morality is not a style to style issue it is a school by school issue and a person to person issue."

I'd agree it's a person by person issue. That's about it.

John,

"YMAA peeps usually have a pretty open mind. This rant post is just reflecting badly. TMA vs. MMA topics are always very volatile."

If they truly had an open mind, then I'd assume TMA vs MMA wouldn't be so volatile. It's more about training methods and not the actual arts. This is one reason I left TMA. Schools were full of close-minded people like this. I always enjoyed TMA though and have searched for schools since. I've yet to find one unfortunately.
Tandem Car Park
Forum User
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:46 am

Postby John Noonan » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:21 pm

People who follow the whole "moral superiority" train of thought are more of a minority, and I haven't met one of them while I was at YMAA.
Fighting Style: The One Style, to rule them all

Frodo: The letters, it's some form of subtitle.
Gandalf: It is the language of Miramax, a dubbing that I will not utter here.
Frodo: Miramax!
-Quote from Crouching Smeagol, Hidden Gollum
John Noonan
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:10 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Beep

Postby monkey » Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:00 pm

Hi everyone.

Discussions about MMA vs. TMA are always a bit tricky. Please stay within the limits of courtesy and respect. Avoid insult at all cost and try to understand each other's point of view.

Above all, read, re-read, think and take a deep breath before you reply.

Thank you.

Your friendly neighbourhood admin.
Pedro Couto e Santos
YMAA Portugal, Almada

--
"Please step *away* from the monkey!"

Fancy a comic strip? Check mine out!
http://www.lifeissimple.org/
monkey
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 7:44 pm
Location: Almada, Portugal

Postby scramasax57 » Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:12 pm

i'd like to point out that about half the people getting upset at each other in this thread aren't even steady YMAA students. please, don't judge YMAA by the statements people make on this forum.

i for one find the "prove it" attitude to be very reasonable. if you're not willing to prove what you can do, why talk about it? without getting in the ring and showing what your training has accomplished, you're just flapping your mouth. if you dont want to have to prove anything, dont make any claims at all. if you don't want to prove that traditional martial arts can take on contemporary styles, don't say they can.
aka eric hinds, 2nd stripe
n. andover, ma branch
yang's martial arts association

changchuan, baihe, and xingyi
scramasax57
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 661
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:25 pm
Location: andover

Postby Folschild » Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:28 am

If they truly had an open mind, then I'd assume TMA vs MMA wouldn't be so volatile.


Open-mindedness does not equal blind acceptance. Do you really think you're in a position to judge the collective YMAA attitude towards MMA, assuming, of course, there is such a thing?

I don't appreciate your generalization of my fellow students. Please don't assume you know anything about our feelings towards any style unless you've been in class with us. This board may try to reflect YMAA, but it's still just the internet. And like scramasax said, you're not even arguing with YMAA students.

Prove it indeed, Hinds.
D.I.K.(e) Productions:
www.d-i-k-e.com
Folschild
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:11 pm
Location: Andover

Postby Tandem Car Park » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:49 am

Forgive me then. I assumed this being a YMAA board that the students of the school would tell anybody making their school sound bad to shut up. I guess I'll still go check out the school.
Tandem Car Park
Forum User
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:46 am

Postby Folschild » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:36 am

I'm not telling you to shut up. I just don't think you should be insulting people you've never met. I'm not simply defending YMAA because you're insutling us, I chimed in here because you're just plain wrong. I'd rather you have the correct impression of our school. I can see how you might have formed the opinion you did about certain users, but making sweeping remarks on YMAA students' open-mindedness isn't making anyone look bad except you.

You mentioned that you left TMA because of arrogant and ignorant students/teachers. If you're looking for TMA bereft of such qualities, YMAA is definitely your school. Are you in the Boston area?
Last edited by Folschild on Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
D.I.K.(e) Productions:
www.d-i-k-e.com
Folschild
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:11 pm
Location: Andover

Postby OnlyMe » Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:44 pm

I think this is a topic that will always be contrasting. Neither is better, just different. I think MMA like UFC show a ton of respect (while of course their are certain guys that arent so nice, same thing can be said about TMA too.) What is different is that MMA like Bruce Lee skips what they considered a waste of time, or something that doesnt get them from A to B in the fastest possible time. They skip out on this, and true to be, if your in competitions you need to learn something fast and not take years and years to understand. In competition if your not learning fast your sinking fast. This is in direct opposite of TMA. They want years and years of study. Never throw out a piece that feels akward, but train it enough so it becomes instinct. TMA is never about competition with someone else, but competing against yourself. I would say its like this, A TMA artist takes years to ponder and understand thier art, while a MMA uses a more direct approach of actual combat to understand thiers. Neither is wrong, just different.
OnlyMe
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:38 pm

Postby Tandem Car Park » Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:13 pm

Fols,

I was talking about the guy who was being all pseuo-philosophical making your school sound bad. I was merely curious if you guys actually trained to fight and sparred as opposed to holding hands, signing kum-ba-ya, and refraining from all out sparring because of its danger. This is a YMMA message board, and the vast majority of posters on this topic have clearly condescending attitudes about MMA is. I figured this being a YMAA message board that YMAA students made up the majority of posters here. Before I posted, I've yet to see a single a post about "be open minded" or eshuing the virtues of MMA-type training. Excuse me for thinking it was a prevailing attitude since YMAA is a traditional school and I see this attitude in nearly every TMA school I trained at or visitted. Quite sad really.


OnlyMe,

That is 100% incorrect in regards to MMA. Almost every person I trained with in MMA came from a traditional background or is still training in a traditional background. Training to fight has it's own virtues of personal growth, and I've personally seen Ba Gua, Xing Yi, and long Fist work quite well in an MMA arena. The sad thing was that these skilled MA'ists had to go outside there school to learn how to use their art.

Some of the techniques of MMA may appear simple, but most takes years in order to master or apply. The simple kick, punch, knee, and elbow can be applied quite readily. It takes years to develop the timing, rhythm, and sensitivity to set an opponent up for shots, fight in the clinch, learn to throw from the clinch, learn to shoot, learn to defend takedowns, learn to regain your feet with an experienced grappler on top, learn to defend/apply/set-up submissions, positional dominance on the ground, etc. It is years of refinement, testing, and development. it looks like brawling and very fast and loose to the unitiated, but the nuances of technqiue that guys in the UFC have is truly astounding. If you want to be able to apply a move in combat, you have train in a live environment.
Tandem Car Park
Forum User
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:46 am

Postby mookie » Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:24 pm

I live on both sides of this arguement. I am a Tai Chi stylist. Most of my background has been in internal esoteric arts. I've also done the harder arts, TKD, Kempo, Shaolin, Hung Gar ect. First things first, as far as attitude, Traditional stylists have in my experience been the attitude problems. I was drawn to the MMA scene by the people I met, who were involved in MMA. They are not at all disrespectful, if anyone had an attitude problem it was I. I now train a number of MMA guys and they are very receptive to Traditional techniques, (if they work). Yes, MMA is streamlined, shouldn't all of us look to refine our technique to simplicity? Next since MMA techniques are so simple why don't Traditional "Masters" just learn them? My Tai Chi teacher encouraged me to learn, at the least to study what other styles will try to do to you. The fact is there are alot of people doing BJJ and Muay Thai. People want to talk about "real" fighting situations. The reality is you will most likely encounter someone trained in these styles. The grappling in BJJ is deadly scary. I've been getting worked by these guys for eight months and am finally able to hold my own and even get a few submissions of my own. The real good BJJ guys will get a rear naked choke on you in seconds if you have no training. This is real stuff. You are completely at his mercy. You will die if he doesn't let you go. We all need to get our butt kicked to understand what fighting is about. Martial art is about fighting right? My fellow kung fu people, why not learn some grappling? Learn to throw and defend knees from the clinch. You have nothing to lose, but your ego.
mookie
Forum Regular
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:05 pm

Postby OnlyMe » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 am

mookie wrote:I live on both sides of this arguement. I am a Tai Chi stylist. Most of my background has been in internal esoteric arts. I've also done the harder arts, TKD, Kempo, Shaolin, Hung Gar ect. First things first, as far as attitude, Traditional stylists have in my experience been the attitude problems. I was drawn to the MMA scene by the people I met, who were involved in MMA. They are not at all disrespectful, if anyone had an attitude problem it was I. I now train a number of MMA guys and they are very receptive to Traditional techniques, (if they work). Yes, MMA is streamlined, shouldn't all of us look to refine our technique to simplicity? Next since MMA techniques are so simple why don't Traditional "Masters" just learn them? My Tai Chi teacher encouraged me to learn, at the least to study what other styles will try to do to you. The fact is there are alot of people doing BJJ and Muay Thai. People want to talk about "real" fighting situations. The reality is you will most likely encounter someone trained in these styles. The grappling in BJJ is deadly scary. I've been getting worked by these guys for eight months and am finally able to hold my own and even get a few submissions of my own. The real good BJJ guys will get a rear naked choke on you in seconds if you have no training. This is real stuff. You are completely at his mercy. You will die if he doesn't let you go. We all need to get our butt kicked to understand what fighting is about. Martial art is about fighting right? My fellow kung fu people, why not learn some grappling? Learn to throw and defend knees from the clinch. You have nothing to lose, but your ego.


Again TMA trains a fighter to learn thier techniques not disregard them for simplicity. Only when you are a true master can one simplify. That takes years, and I am not talking about 2-5 years. I am talking at least a decade. Even if a true master decides to simplify, its not going to be what will tap you out. Its gonna be what can kill you the fastest. A master is not going to attack anyone for competition, but will defend his life. Thats what he trains for. But then again most would use a gun anyways, so its all moot point.

What ego??...if I fight you for real, I am not going to grapple with you..this is not a ring. I would go for eyes,throat,vital areas with strikes..you grap one arm for an armbar, I jab a finger in your eye or fish hook your mouth. You are fighting with rules!! There is chin na in TMA, but with those gloves on you cant use those finger and wrist joints for locks. But thats competition. Thats MMA! Also 9 out of 10 people that want to fight you on the street are not going to be doing any martial arts. Both MMA and TMA fighters know about respect, where some street thug wont. MMA trains for ring fighting. So I am sure if you had a MMA against TMA in the ring then its really to MMA advantage. But throw out the rules, and make it a street, and I think you would see a more even fight.

Martial arts is not all about fighting. Its about peace of mind and balance. Symmetry of the body and motion. I train to learn to control myself, not for competition. But its not wrong to want competition. Just some choose not to.
OnlyMe
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:38 pm

Next

Return to Sparring and Fighting

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

cron