Tai Chi real applications and adreniline rush

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Tai Chi real applications and adreniline rush

Postby jfraser » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:30 am

I have seen films of Wing Tsun and Choi Lay Fut fighters fighting on a roof top in Hong Kong, and it seems as if when the [b]adreniline rushes [/b]into their nervous systems, all the kung fu training evaporates. These are people that have trained in each of these systems for many years.

Then we have a roof top brawl, with nothing resembling years of either systems training showing itself in the fighters Just flying roundhouse punches and a tackle. All the lap sou, pak sou , etc, fell apart in these circustances.

What about he adreniline factor with inticate techniques that require small motor coordiniation, like in Chin Na or pressure point stiking? My understanding is the small motor coordination all but disappears, and there are only gross movement availble with an adreniline rush.
Perhaps, that is part of the reason some Kung Fu masters pick a favorite technique and do it 200 time a day the rest of their life.

What do you think and what is your experience?

James :?: :)
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Re: Tai Chi real applications and adreniline rush

Postby ryukido » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:11 pm

Hi James

I've been training in Okinawa karate (uchinadi) for over twenty years and the last several years in taijiquan.

You are absolutely correct in that fine motor skill goes out the window when faced with the fight or flee reaction of the body. I have trained with teachers who say that you must have pin point accuracy to get technique A to work. If you ever hear this, leave the school immediately. Likely, this person has never been attacked on the street and or has a training curriculum that is not realistic.

I have had 5 very serious attacks in my life and can tell you from experience that I could not pull off any defense technique that required pin point accuracy. In my training, we practice only using blunt, brutal techniques that resemble very little of the beauty of a taijiquan or karate form. The application comes from the form but practice with the recognition that you will use gross motor movement. The best way to do that is to simulate a street attack as closely as you can while maintaining safety for your partner.

Best
Vaughn


jfraser wrote:I have seen films of Wing Tsun and Choi Lay Fut fighters fighting on a roof top in Hong Kong, and it seems as if when the adreniline rushes into their nervous systems, all the kung fu training evaporates. These are people that have trained in each of these systems for many years.

Then we have a roof top brawl, with nothing resembling years of either systems training showing itself in the fighters Just flying roundhouse punches and a tackle. All the lap sou, pak sou , etc, fell apart in these circustances.

What about he adreniline factor with inticate techniques that require small motor coordiniation, like in Chin Na or pressure point stiking? My understanding is the small motor coordination all but disappears, and there are only gross movement availble with an adreniline rush.
Perhaps, that is part of the reason some Kung Fu masters pick a favorite technique and do it 200 time a day the rest of their life.

What do you think and what is your experience?

James :?: :)
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Tai Chi and the adreniline dump?

Postby jfraser » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:34 am

Vaughn,

Thank you for you direct and to the point input. I practiced Shorin-ryu for about 10 years. If I might ask, what brings you to Tai Chi?

I wonder how this topic of "adreniline dump", it with the complexity of Tai Chi training, like with the breadth and depth of Dr. Yang. I certainly know that not all Tai Chi training has depth and breadth.

I often wish there was a Hsin(g) Yi teacher here, because this system is also blunt and direct. These teachers are hard to locate, except perhaps in Shanghai, Beijing, Shanxi Province., etc.

Given this "adreniline dump", I ask myself how do I train in Tai Chi?
I do not have many answers yet, but I am exploring same.

Best regards, and Happy Holidays,
James :?: :)
Nantong, China
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Re: Tai Chi and the adreniline dump?

Postby ryukido » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:25 am

Hi James

I came into taijiquan through my qigong studies. One of my qigong teachers taught Chen style. When I saw it, I immediately recognized what was missing in my karate training. That thing was the slowness of the pattern which better facilitated the visualization of self-defense application. When I performed my karata kata, I could never visualize the use of the technique because the pattern was done too fast. It wasn't until I slowed down that I was able to visualize. This elevated my training to a whole new level from everything beginning with the quality and leading of qi to my understanding of technique. (I'm greatly oversimplifying the result but the email would be too long.) Anyways, it was an epiphany for me.

How long have you been studying taijiquan and what style?

As for how to apply to your training... Here's the road that I went down a long time ago. Perhaps it can offer you something.

1. Decide what you are training for. Generally, karate and likely taijiquan were developed as civilian MA systems. Meaning that they are for defending yourself against the avgerage Joe Smoe on the street. If your are training for sport, UFC, or to go against other MAs, your approach will be different.

2. I train as if the person attacking is not a skilled MA. Reason is probability. What is the probability that another MA is going to attack me. Slim to none. Given this, there are only so many ways that you can be attacked. Catalog the different ways - there are less than 40 and many of the 40 are a variation.

3. With your inventory of attacks, look for a likely response in your taijiquan form. Hopefully, you are training with a teacher who can show you these. If not, you would have to travel down the difficult road of reverse engineering. An important set of principles around technique are... they have to be simple to perform, get results immediately, and be reproducible without 20 years of training.

4. As you process through each of the attacks with a response, ask yourself, " could I do this technique if my body had the shakes?".

5. Test your techniques (hypothesis) against different people of different sizes. The challenge here will be that these helpers will likely be your MA friends and respond to your defense in a MA way.

I have spent a great deal of time in practical karate training and would hypothesize that the techniques in taijiquan are similar in that they are meant to be simple, blunt, and effective. I think where taijiquan differs from karate is in the qigong. The taijiquan forms appear to me to offer both a martial and health art. This theory explains the exaggerated hand movements and unusually low stances. They are there to move the qi and exercise the body. Which is another long discussion. (My $.02)

If you'd like to continue the discussion, I'd be happy to. Let me know and I'll give you my email address.

BTW... How far is Nantong from Shanghai? Just curious. I'll be in Shanghai in Feb for a week if work plans hold up.

Take care
Vaughn


jfraser wrote:Vaughn,

Thank you for you direct and to the point input. I practiced Shorin-ryu for about 10 years. If I might ask, what brings you to Tai Chi?

I wonder how this topic of "adreniline dump", it with the complexity of Tai Chi training, like with the breadth and depth of Dr. Yang. I certainly know that not all Tai Chi training has depth and breadth.

I often wish there was a Hsin(g) Yi teacher here, because this system is also blunt and direct. These teachers are hard to locate, except perhaps in Shanghai, Beijing, Shanxi Province., etc.

Given this "adreniline dump", I ask myself how do I train in Tai Chi?
I do not have many answers yet, but I am exploring same.

Best regards, and Happy Holidays,
James :?: :)
Nantong, China
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"Welcome to visit my hometown."

Postby jfraser » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:42 am

As my students in my university classes say (in boken English) welcome to my home town (Nantong)...

What to see in Nantong.? There are 3 sacred Buddhist mountians here, and one is important nationally, it is called Tong Shan (dragon mountain) a classic temple,with monks aand nuns, Long Shan (Dragon Mounain)overlooks the Yang Tse river. There is a great and new 5 star hotel at the foot of the mountain, and a block from the river.

Around Downtown Nantong, thre is a large and beautiful system of canals, part of which served as a mot for old city, about a 1,000 years ago. The people are friendly and curious about foreigners. The canals are especially beautiful to take a boat out on in the evening, and they and the buildings around these canals are beautifully designed, with colored lights and fountains. It is a little like a Chinese Venice.

I hope you can stop by.

James[b][/b][color=blue][/color][size=18][/size]
Last edited by jfraser on Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Welcome to visit my hometown."

Postby ryukido » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:21 pm

Thanks James. I'll have to look on the map to see how far it is from Shanghai.

Best
Vaughn



jfraser wrote:As my students in my university classes say (in boken English) welcome to my home town (Nantong)...

What to see in Nantong.? There are 3 sacred Buddhist mountians here, and one is impertant nationally, it is called Tong Shan (dragon mountain) a classic temple,with monks aand nuns, Long Shan (Dragon Mounain)overlooks the Yang Tse river. There is a great and new 5 star hotel at the foot of the mountain, and a block from the river.

Around Downtown Nantong, thre is a large and beautiful system of canals, part of which served as a mot for old city, about a 1,000 years ago. The people are friendly and curious about foreigners. The canals are especially beautiful to take a boat out on in the evening, and they and the buildings around these canals are beautifully designed, with colored lights and fountains. It is a little like a Chinese Venise.

I hope you can stop by.

James
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HAPPY NEW YEAR! AND CONTINUING THE "ADRENILINE DUMP&qu

Postby jfraser » Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:02 am

Vaughn, and others on this YMAA forum:

First of all, [color=red]HAPPY NEW YEARS, AND A HEALTHY, AND EVOLVING 2007 TO YOU[/color]

Well, the internet and Yahoo is getting up and running after a week of being down due to the cable damage off of Taiwan. It is slow, but it works.

So, let me see,where were we before the holidays. You said there were about 40 ways, many of them variations, that one could be attacked on the streets, focucing on the USA culture, I assume. So, I can imagine a number of them, ranging from the "sucker punch" which can begin with a verbal assault, or come from medium range, out of 'nowhere". There is the boxer jab, cross, hook, to a sudden knife attack, to the baseball bat at the knees or head. What others are you aware off?

And there is the adreniline issue again, of Tai Chi seems to focus on close range fighting, more hands than feet. and a considerable emphasis on siezing a wrist, elbow, or shoulder, often with the intention to stick and follow to redirect or disapate "Blacks" power to create an opening for a counter attacking technique.

With the "dump" of adreniline in the human system, "White" siezing a limb can be next to impossible. and as you said, "Black" will instintively pull this arm back after a punch.

So, I continue to ask myself, does Tai Chi recognize these factors and if Tai Chi teachers recognize these factors, how do they adapt themselves and their students to this autonomic adreniline rush, that makes refined movements next to impossible, likevarious Chin Na techinques, or as "Grasping a Bird's Tail"? Dr. Yang states that Tai Chi fighting consists or Shwai (sp?) Jiao (wrestling), Chin Na, and Cavity (pressure point) strikes. The last 2 seem to require refined movement and excellant aim. How is this done in a fight, with a strong dose of adreniline pumping through my/our system?

I now think, if one has a good and in-depth teacher, a student can learn such sensitivity that he can become aware of the "Yi" and intention of an opponent on the street. This I derived from reading some of Dr. Yang's writings.

I recently receive several of Dr. Yang's books in the mail, including TAI CHI CHUAN MARTIAL APPICATIONS, QIGONG MEDITATION, Embryonic Breathing, and TAI CHI THEORY AND MARTIAL POWER. These books are packed with a great deal of in-depth and breadth of information, theory,
practices, and applications of Tai Chi and Qigong. I don't know if I have enough years to digest and practice what I am beginning to read about in these books. I certainly appreciate Dr. Yangs highly organized and open approach in these writings. Looking over even one of them is mind boggling.

And I wonder why there does not seem to be much interest in this topic, besides you and I?

Maybe one of the moderators could add some of their knowledge, and experience to this topic?
:?: :?
Time to go to bed.

More later.

Best regards,
James
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Wing Tsun and Adrenaline

Postby silverfox » Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:32 am

Hello Everyone and Happy New Year,

I feel that this is a much needed topic of discussion and I am glad the author presented it. The question of of how does a Fine Motor Martial Art FMMA function under the hyper adrenalized conditions of combat when one only has gross motor abilities left is a complex issue.

First, we must look at the factors that would affect the adrenalinzed reactions in the human body to enable the technical aspects of a FMMA to function smoothly and precisely.

After one has had a adrenal induced event the first thing we feel is the need to breath deeply. The reason for this is so the oxygen is able to help reestablish balance within the body.

So if a martial artist is training even a basic level of Qigong then he/she would have a stronger control over their breath and chi flow during such a situation, more so than the person without any type of qigong training.

This is not saying the martial artist will not be affected by the adrenaline surge, it merely demonstrates that the martial artist would be able to regulate their breathing to a degree where they could calm themselves slightly better, and use their breathing along with that surge of adrenaline to create a stronger qigong or force of power energy. This why in the martial arts we have certain sounds or types of Qigong. (Ex.. Hen, Ha, Kiay, Kiap, or Hard Qigong, soft qigong.)

Master Yang's books are deep and there is alot to learn there in 20 lifetimes minimum, but the Chinese Martial Arts have taught us that different types of breathing and movements can elicit different types of effects on the human body.

The Second factor to examine is if the Martial Style is able to function in an adrenalized situation. The key to fighting under pressure is that practice makes permenant. By this we mean simply practice to use your Fighting techniques in a sparring platform or a 2 person platform with some reactions varying slow at first to a later accelerated speed that is a facsimile of a combat situation. Remember to breathe while training!

As for the style itself Wing Tsun and Taiji are technically simple systems. WT has only 3 empty hand forms and Yang style Taiji has 1 long form. Wing Tsun WT teaches the student fine and gross motor motions. For example my WT students are taught 5 zones to go through in order to destroy your opponent. (kick, punch, knees and elbows, chin na , and grappling.) Taiji also has many gross motor movements in it's form, such as body punches, knees, palm strikes, and a variety of kicking techniques.

A good friend of mine and I discussed these topics. Chin Na and Shui jiao are typically set up through a precursor movement. You don't just take it, they are found while fighting, not searched for. If the opponent presents a finger you lock it, if the opponent's balance is uprooted throw em, etc.. Use a kick to enter into a punch to enter into a chin na to enter into a throw.

In the begining the sensitivity is not there, but as time progresses these gross motor movements become more sensitive through various exercises, chi sao, push hands, sparring, etc.. So there is a progression from GM to FM but you can alaways fight with WT and Taiji.

The third thing that has an effect on the adrenal kick is meditation and learning to still your mind or the "monkey mind" as it is called sometimes. To be able to turn the radio in our mind down and eventually off so that the body is able to fight properly without the mind getting in the way. To feel and not think, because we don't have time to think in a fight only to react.

Special exercises help with this such as the various types of meditation, candle watching, etc.. These not only calm the practioneer in a fight to a certain degree, but also helps to combine with the adrenaline to engage a strong fight focus in the mind and body.

I suspect that the folks you and I saw on that rooftop film were not masters or even advanced level practioneers. As for the boxer or other type of fighter who likes to hit and withdraw their bridge, remember in Wing Tsun as in other styles, when the path is clear go forward.

The key to adrenal is learning how to use it to your advantage. This is a deep and difficult task for all martial artists, but with proper instruction, alot of practice and patience, and a really big smile we can succeed.

Thanks, for posting a very intelligent and well articulated topic. Happy New Year!


Scott Tarbell
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

Scott Tarbell
Director of YMAA Amesbury
www.ymaakungfu.com
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HAPPY NEW YEAR! AND CONTINUING THE ADRENILINE DUMP

Postby ryukido » Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:58 pm

Hello James & Scott

Happy New Year!

To get started, the list of common attacks that I work off of do not include weapons. The assumption is a untrained person with no weapon (probability theory). Below is a link from Patrick McCarthy's site that lists the attacks that typical okinawa kata attempt to address and this is not from a USA point of view. It is pretty close to my list.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.org/KU_HAPV.pdf

So I think the first question to be answered is.... Under what conditions is taiji used for? Civilian defense, militarty, weapons, combination of all? Once you figure this out, you can then begin to figure out what the moves are for. This is the exercise that many people have gone through in the karate world, myself included.

But let me caution you for a moment. In the karate world, kata is simply a pattern of movement that reflect a particular person's methods of fighting. It will be nearly impossible to know definitively what the movements are for if the creator is not around to tell you himself. All that you have left is faith. Faith that the person showing the application has received the truth and faith that what he is showing you is that truth.

I'm not saying that the road of deciphering a form is not worth doing. It is painful but can lead to a deeper understanding of your art. IMHO,I think you need 3 things in order to get on the right track. One, what was the purpose of taiji from a fighting perspective (civilian, militarty, close-qtr, weapons, etc). Two, once you know number 1, you need a list attacks that the form attempts to address. Three, you need a list of principles to help you weed out applications and circumstances that aren't realistic. You have to approach this is a scientific manner (hypothesis, test, etc).

Now this is where the adreniline part comes back in. I agree with many of Scott's points except that I personally don't believe that you will progress from GM to FM in a fight. I do believe you that as you train longer you will become very efficient in your movement. My belief is that 99.9% of the people who train in MAs would never be able to execute anything other than a gross motor movement in a situation where they need to protect themselves. I do agree on the points around breathing. We have to train ourselves on deep breathing techniques as we train in closely simulated street sparring (for lack of a better word).

Also agree with Scott on the grappling aspect. Mostly, b/c the strategy of my fighting style is impacting. Grappling is used for situations calling for restraint, used to create an opening that allows a more effective blow, or basically falls in your lap. I've seen many books and vids that show the instructor catching punches in mid air. Ain't gonna happen and I don't care how long you've been training. When someone takes a swing at you, the last thing you're going to think about is catching. You need to think about running or simultaneously checking and countering. Strategically it makes no sense. If your objective is to end the altercation (after you've tried to avoid it), then you need to put the person down with the least number of movements b/c they might have friends.

To respond to your question of "does tai chi recognize these factors", I have to believe it does. My okinawan karate essentially came from China. The question is... does the teacher really know the realities of fighting and are they showing this to you?

Grasping Bird's Tail.... I haven't seen the application you are referring to and I'm going to go out on a limb here. I will probably take a lot of heat but I like being a rebel. As I mentioned to you previously, I don't study taiji for MA, I get this from karate. So what I'm about to say is based 90 seconds of study. When I look at this movement, I see two techniques. The first is the forearm going across my opponents throat while I'm pulling him into me with my other hand. After I complete this move, I see a neck break that leads him to the ground. The second technique is an a attack to the popular ST9 pressure point on the neck. I see it being executed be putting the hand on the back of the neck and striking to ST9 with the ridge of the other hand (this is where the ridge of one hand meets the crease of the wrist on the opposite hand).

Final thought... self-defense does not take 20 lifetimes. One of the principles you should consider embracing is this.... "the technique must be simple to learn and easy to repeat". I'm convinced the old masters believed this. Things that take a long time are breath control, energy cultivation, and efficiency of movement.

Ok, one more thought. You mentioned being a bit overwhelmed by the material in the books you recently bought. Let me suggest one more book. It is karate based but I really believe the concepts carry over into any MA system.

http://www.amazon.com/Five-Years-Kata-B ... F8&s=books

Best
Vaughn
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Postby Carlo One » Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:44 pm

First post here, greetings. Saw an interesting and practical topic where I (perhaps) might offer something useful.

The above posters are certainly more experienced than I am when talking about applications of techniques in a fighting situation. I'd like to instead address the situational awareness aspect, i.e. trying to manage the adrenaline rush rather than managing fighting techniques afterwards.

Many people are probably aware of this, but it's common these days in the world of security training to look at the person's physical/mental state in color codes: green - safe/happy/unaware, yellow - aware, orange - alert/ready for action, red - crisis. In a surprise attack, you go from green or yellow to red (loss of fine motor skills, tunnel vision, adrenaline dump) almost immediately, since there's not enough time to intellectually manage the reflex. This is why the utility and importance of being in a yellow state normally is emphasized, with a person moving to orange in recognition of possible necessity of situational fight/flight. The idea with managing the stages is to be "red" for as little time as possible.

In my own taijiquan training, it's been emphasized that one needs to be physically relaxed as possible in a fighting situation to properly apply the "listening" and other defensive and countering techniques. Not the easiest thing to do, since it's natural to tense up in those situations. While calmness is a relative term - I imagine very few, if any people, can remain "normally" calm during a fight - the advantage it can confer is potentially huge. Since this is the YMAA forum, it's worth mentioning that Dr. Yang addresses this in his books, talking about calmness and bravery in the face of danger as being as much keys to success in a real fight as technique. This is both wise to recognize and should be common sense, since if you either are too scared or hyped-up in a fight, your ability to be effective will seriously decline. Fear management is probably another topic in itself, but it's worth saying that almost everyone is afraid at the beginning of a crisis situation, it's how you deal with it that matters.

If I'm unfortunate enough to be attacked, I expect I would rely at least partly on my limited external martial arts training (in Tae Kwon Do), but as I advance in understanding and practicing the internal arts, I hope to bring the associated calmness of mind and complementary techniques into play as well. I think it's that part, as much as learning the techniques themselves, why taijiquan takes so long to learn properly as a martial art - it's hard to relax in a real-life situation.

Cheers,
Charles
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Postby yat_chum » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:11 am

Hi jfraser, when I first read this thread I took the liberty of post your question on the wingchunkuen.com forum to see what the chunners would make of it. Here is the link.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php ... ight=#6629

As for myself I have only ever been in one serious altercation (involving a live or death situation) and I have no idea what I did, all I know is that I won. I am sure that what ever I did it didn't look pretty. Jo
yijing zhigang

use stillness to overcome movement
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adrenaline and fighting

Postby silverfox » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:39 pm

Hello again,

I just wanted to clear up that the transition from GM to FM happens in training, not in fighting. In the begining styles like taiji, wing tsun, akido, bagua, liu he ba fa, etc.. would have to use GM movements, but after overexposure to a stimulus at an ever increasing level of reaction, speed, and timing which is achieved thru training 2 person drills and sparring then eventually thru training these GM movements would become more sensitive, smaller, and much more precise turning them into the higher skilled level FM techniques they were originally designed to be.

The high levels of the aforementioned styles are just that high level, so to be proficient in the sense of how the style should be used then it takes time as opposed to some other styles which are not working towards these levels of complexity or deepness and are easier to use technically in the begining to fight with since they are only using GM techniques and never progress to the level of being soft and learning the FM fighting skills such as sensitivity, cavity strikes, qin na, etc..

In the softer styles there is the understanding that it will take time to develop this skill, but knowing self defense techniques are definately a plus. I always say though that keep it simple, but also train your students not only to beat streetfighters and MMA guys, but also train them to defeat a master. This way they never shortchange themselves by only learning just enough to understand basic self defense.

Many of the altercations I have been in were very confusing and quick, in the sense that I didn't have thinking time only neck chopping time and that worked. In other fights I have had they were fights because the other guy also knew martial arts which forced me to technically transition my style so as to adapt to his style. If I hadn't trained my martial techniques in a sparring platform as often as I did and only trained self defense against probable street scenarios then my opponent would have bested me because he was that muay thai, taekwondo, boxer, BJJ fighter who trained only to fight.

These FM styles are not meant to teach you to fight immediately, nor are they concerned with it at first either. Master Yang says the student traditionally didn't start to learn the martial applications to their sequences until after three years of training.

If you are training a FM style with the exception of Wing Tsun which does teach you to fight right away, and you are really concerned with the martial aspects for fighting or self defense perhaps these styles are not what you should be training.

for Taiji and any complex style, you can fight with them, but it takes time and patience. I suggest learning the art seriously and deeply before even considering the fighting apects of the art. Let the art master you instead of you trying to master the art, and remember to smile when you train you will learn more.

Thanks
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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www.ymaakungfu.com
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adrenaline and fighting

Postby ryukido » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:49 pm

Scott

Good post. Obviously, we are coming at this from two different perspectives which is at the heart of the style. In other words, one needs to understand the goals and strategy of the style before one begin to understand how the tactics work.

For example, the goal of karate for the most part is to defeat your opponent as quickly as possible with the least amount of effort with the shortest amount of training time. This is accomplished via gross motor skill striking. FM is not necessary to achieve this goal and this is clear when looking at the applications of karate forms (kata).

However, I would argue that taijiquan is as much a qigong system as it is a fighting system. Now that is not exactly earth shattering ... many others before me have said this. But I mean it at a tactical level. In other words, I could envision that some of the movements or the way that some of the moves are performed are meant to achieve a qigong goal as much as a fighting goal. To me, this explains some of the FM movements as well as some of the movements that are clearly exaggerated. I have seen a number of teachers apply reasonable applications from taiji against an opponent but when executed they only remotely resemble the form... hence the qigong aspect of it.

To sum up... in order to understand the tactics of the form, one must understand the goals and strategy of the style.

Cheers
Vaughn
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Thanks to all for your well written and valualble posts!

Postby jfraser » Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:21 am

Dr Yang states in ...Martial Application" that in the TC form, many of the staces are false, and or the stepping that would make a technique work is not shown. As it is, the stepping in the Tai Chi set, makes no sence to me, especially after I spent several years around
Silat people. So, will play some tomorrow and see what stepping fits what momement. And there is a sense for me that there are slap blockes and arm pinning like WC, or Silat, or Kali, from the Filipinos.

So I practice my Silat stepping patterns every day, and I am told they will naturally integrate with punching striking, defense, without thinking. That has proven to be true. Step angling is very important, in my opinion.

So, where does Hsing Yi fit into this GMM vs FMM discussion. My experience with Muslim Xhing Yi is that is does not have many fine motor momemts and it is basically a freight train coming at you from some angles, full steam ahead.

:) James

PS. I will be moving to teach at another University in Shenyang City, Northeast China on 01/16. This will give me access to a great Yang Tai Chi Xiao Jia (small frame) teacher, at took me as an indoor student last summer.
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train form but forget it

Postby yeniseri » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:30 am

Most people rely on the form's properties but this is false.
You have to incorporate a structure utilizing liuhebafa (concepts) within the forms' structure to be better prepared. Utilizing shuaijiao or qinna within taijiquan is an excellent way to go and it is more realistic.
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Postby NHixson » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:57 pm

Hello everyone new to the boards and wanted to add my own insight.

I practiced Tang Su Do for the better part of 11 years and was in many tornaments and over the last 2 years I have met my Tai-Chi instructor and have dedicated a fair amount of my time scratching the surface of this art.
Anyway what I wanted to point out how Tai-Chi has helped me in the real world so far are just in the understanding of the human body and how it moves, it has also helped me a tremendous amount with keeping my head in a clear and calm state.
Being a smaller guy...5"6" 135lbs I have seen success using the princibles of leverage and have been told on many accounts that I am "very hard to move" because of my work on being rooted.
I work with very macho guys who are always roughhousing so I use the time to apply some techniques I have worked on....Many times they fail and I look silly but I see the fruits of my labor after only 2 years of study.
I never expect to have Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon fights but like an earlier post mentioned against an uneducated fighter who is using raw strength these techniques will work.
I also feel that my hard style training helped alot because sparing has helped me tame my fight or flight response so at this point I feel no anxioty(sp?) when puches are being thrown my way if they aren't going to hit me.
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adrenaline rush

Postby silverfox » Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:13 pm

Hello again,

Most people rely on the form's properties but this is false.
You have to incorporate a structure utilizing liuhebafa (concepts) within the forms' structure to be better prepared.


Utilizing shuaijiao or qinna within taijiquan is an excellent way to go and it is more realistic


Yenseri, could you please further elaborate on these comments.

Thanks,

Scott
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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www.ymaakungfu.com
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adrenaline rush

Postby silverfox » Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:38 pm

NHixson,

Nice post. It is good to hear that the Taiji is helping you to discover some of the often overlooked facets of a powerful martial art. The calm head is definately a benefit that Taiji adds to a fighter, which is what we had discussed previously on the thread.

While the frantic world of combat is thrashing around you, being able to slow this down for even a fraction of a second makes all the difference. The rooting is an excellent quality also, especially while doing the Taiji walk.

I had mentioned earlier that a fighter of any style needs to practice sparring and learn to desensitize themselves to flurries of attacks.
A great drill for this is to stand in your chosen fighting posture and find a skilled trustworthy partner who has alot of control with their strikes. Have your partner throw combos of punches and kicks towards you. The other person's job is to not close their eyes and not to flinch. This helps with the desensitization of getting hit or freezing up when sparring and more importantly in a real fight.

Also, later when you practice the advanced way, blocking without moving your feet, you will start to practice deep breathing to help relax during the flurry. The fun part in the advanced stages of this training drill is that you don't allow yourself to blink so your eyes tear up and your vision becomes blurred. This is like being hit in the nose where you can't see clearly, and still have to fight. This is when your listening jin becomes of utmost importance.

No Blinking, Eyes Wide Open Like A Tiger Crashing Down The Mountainside. This is how to develop the eye of the tiger. I think I hear a theme song coming on! Just kidding! :lol:

I hope this helped :D

Thanks,

Scott
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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www.ymaakungfu.com
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Postby E. Hinds » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:01 pm

I'd like to weigh in on the Xingyi side. Xingyi is said to take "100 days to learn, 100 years to know". This shows the fact that Xingyi was designed to quickly give people a reliable powerful fighting style, and then enable to refine and refine and refine that over years of practicing the basics until the finer points of the art can be brought into play. You could just learn basic Xingyi stepping and the five fists and you could use that to fight reasonably well, especially against untrained opponents, in a month or two. The goal of practice is to slowly replace pure muscular force with the much greater and more efficient combination of muscle and internal power.

I can say that from what I've seen the people who really get thrashed are people who try to think in a fight. Remaining focussed and controlling emotions are necessary strategies, but thinking about your training while trying to defend yourself is going to get you beaten. Your mind should only be setting a general strategy, and it should be very "background activity". Your brain is too slow to fight, you need to rely on brain stem and spinal chord reactions, and the only way to do that is to practice the basics constantly, in as many variations as possible, solo, slow, fast, with a partner, with partners of completely different body types and fighting styles, everything. Basics, basics, basics. As soon as you stop to think you're dead.
Eric Hinds
Shaolin 2nd Stripe

Longquan, Baihe, Xingyi
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Postby silverfox » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:46 am

Hey Eric,

In Wing Tsun we focus on the same idea of no mind, just kinetic reflex. I totally agree that if you you try to think you put yourself at a disadvantage.

I think Wing Tsun and Xingyi have similar fighting idealogies. We teach the student to fight efficiently in a short time, but the real training in WT is the extended journey and deeper levels of kinetic response, a decrease in the time lapses between the transitional flow of those responses. The focus of the centerline for attack and defense, rushing in to engage, using straight and angular attacks with low kicks and hand combos at the same time.

Eric in Xingyi are there any drills for developing listening and adhereing jins?

Good to hear from you again, we miss you down in Andover.

Thanks,

Scott
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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www.ymaakungfu.com
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