Realistic Fight Ending Strikes and Sparring Favorites

Discuss sparring, training applications in a competition environment, or even in real-life (fighting, self-defence). Please no violence!
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Realistic Fight Ending Strikes and Sparring Favorites

Postby silverfox » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:28 pm

Hello everyone,

I was curious what some people's ideas of devasting techniques are. This should include techniques that typically end a fight very quickly in real combat, no matter the size, strength, or speed of your opponent.

What are some of your favorite finishing moves that you keep in your Bag O' Tricks?

For example, I have always loved the 2 hands around the neck clinch to knee the head repeatedly, the pass the bridge and chop the neck, a good poke to the eyes if really necessary, and old reliable- a big toe kick to the groin.

Also what are some of your favorite sparring techniques that are just fun to play with?

Please stay on topic

Thanks for your input,

Scott
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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Postby E. Hinds » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:32 am

My personal favorite is a takedown along the lines of Short Defense #7, i.e. enter inside, lead leg steps behind theirs, lead arm crosses their chest, throw. I like it because it's extremely fast and simple, lets me use my size and strength, it creates a good opening to strike the face with the lead arm, and being thrown hard on concrete can be devastating. For situations where you don't want to cause lots of damage a good sleeper hold is always a fav.
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Postby Inga » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:11 pm

My finishing technique is likely to be legging it as fast as my adrenaline will allow me, having smashed out a knee, nose or finger. I may have to wait until I am placed in such a situtation before I can find out. I may surprise myself. Scott, I like the neck clinch to the knee too, I have been encouraged to adopt that one given my size and strength. I had a funny vision reading Eric's post of me attempting short defense on someone his size and just bouncing off. Oh wait, that was a memory...

My favourite sparring technique is reaction training.
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Postby silverfox » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:32 pm

Eric
I definately can see you wrecking shop with # 7 and # 9, ouch!
I do remember those days.

Inga,
I also like a solid off angle side stomp kick to the knee with a run away follow up, I am a very masterful runner. In fact this is my best technique. The Napolean Dynamite slap-n-run technique is a score. :lol:

I also think breaking a collar bone is a very effective way of stopping a fight fast, well at least on one side of their body.

A well placed strike to the solar plexus is definately a show stopper.

Keep the excellent replies coming!

Thanks,

Scott
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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Postby N0M4D » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:01 am

Hi, guys


Never really thought about this one…

In sparring, one of my favorites is just a nice circular punch to the jawline – I can usually get past an opponent’s guard pretty easily and land this one. If it connects (full power, and I don’t do that in reaction practice!) it’s supposed to be “lights off”.

I also always liked kicking knee caps. You should be able to dislocate it if the kick has the right angle/power: if your opponent can’t stand – let alone walk or run – and you still can, that’s game over.

P.S: Eric, nice to see you back to the forums. Tony had mentioned it but I had to check for myself. Hope all is well with you.
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"I don't know Karate, but I know Ca-razy, and I'm not afraid to use it." - Roy O'Bannon, Shanghai Noon :mrgreen:
(thanks for the head's up, John :wink:)
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Postby Tarandus » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:15 am

I don't believe in using devastating techniques unless there is absolutely no alternative - for instance, against an armed opponent or against multiple opponents where it might be necessary to disable one of them to make the others lose heart. There is a saying in the I ching: 'A goat butts against a hedge - and entangles its horns'. In Tai Chi, one should be like the hedge, soft and defensive, so that nothing can get through. When I lived in London I was attacked in broad daylight on my way home from work by six teenagers. One of them had a thick stick he had broken off a tree - thank God it wasn't a baseball bat. The contest went on for about 100 yards, with me stopping frequently to defend myself against renewed attacks. At one stage, the one with the stick was trying to hit me very hard and repeatedly over the head with it while the others were punching me from behind. I warded off nearly all the blows with the stick, but one glancing blow got through and hit me on the side of the head and came down across the bridge of my nose. By this stage, we were all right outside the front door to the block where I lived. I knew they were never going to give up no matter how much of a 'hedge' I presented to them. They were more spread out by this time, so I went for the one with the stick, deflected his stick arm, turned my hand under his wrist and held it, then stepped forward into a bow stance and struck him in the side of the face with my elbow. This was enough to stun him. I then advanced towards the next most violent in the gang, who had now lost heart, and who turned round and started to run away, but he tripped over his own feet and fell flat on his face in the road. Then they all ran off. I only learned later about being punched in the back from a neighbour who was watching everything from his window. At the time, I didn't feel anything. Afterwards, I had a lot of bruising down my forearm from warding off the stick and although I was wearing a sweatshirt, the skin was broken in one place, and I had a tiny cut on the bridge of my nose. Although they were certainly a local gang, they never attacked me again, because I hadn't given them enough pretext for reprisals. I had used minimal force. If I'd gone further, they would have had every excuse to try and get their revenge. For instance, I lived on the ground floor and it would have been easy for them to smash my windows, but they never did. Later, when I moved here to Brighton, I was in a similar confrontation. I'd had an argument late at night with some workers in a takeaway over change, and they followed me out into the street and tried to beat me up. There were three of them, in their twenties, although one looked in his early thirties. They were all trying to punch and kick me and one of them was also trying to burn me on the arm with a lighted cigarette. I warded off everything, although once I tried to kick the man with the cigarette, but as I was drunk, I messed it up and fell over in the road. While I was down, he kicked me in the head, but I got up and carried on parrying punches and kicks. Eventually, they just gave up, because they couldn't get through. Once again, I provided them with no excuse for reprisals or revenge. I go down that street a lot, and they have knives in their shop ... But they got the message, and that was sufficient. It really isn't worth trying to take someone out with a knockout blow causing serious injury unless you can be sure that you will never see the person again and that he won't be carrying a gun or a knife next time. You don't want to risk revenge attack, and next time too, he might be in a gang, and an armed gang at that. Also, of course, the 'morality' of disabling strikes except where absolutely unavoidable, is questionable. You're only as good as your last fight. Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby Yatish Parmar » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:14 am

That reminds me of an incident about two years back when I was going out to buy some cassava for a barbecue I was having. About 6 kids tried to jack me for my mobile and wallet. There was one main cat and at the time I was smashed over the head and back with a pole. I couldn't hear out of one ear and up till then I was just facing them off and warding off blows. At that point I was like f*** it now I am going to take you out. As soon as I charged in one who was quietly at the back stepped in reaching into his pocket for something so I stepped back again, no point dying over a mobile phone. By then though the rest of them were taken aback like we just lamped him over the head with a pole and he is still standing there effing and blinding. But anyway my experience as a rowdy teenager, and as a teacher in a school full of rowdy teenagers is that most people (who don't go to a boxing club) love to reach right back for a good swing. If you are quick and pay attention to the other hand you can get in quickly and go to work OR because most people seem to go for a punch with the right hand pop a kick in at the liver area while they are setting up. OK I need some breakfast...
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Postby yat_chum » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:47 am

Hi Tarandus, I must say I must disagree with you about not using a knockout blow. I personally think it is kinder to knock someone out than to continue a fight both taking multiple injures. If you look at many White Crane boxing systems and by extension the Okinawan systems they don’t rely on using a series on multiple blow like many kungfu systems but use one powerful blow to finish a fight. Don’t get me wrong I am not a violent person I work in Care with adults with special needs and have been hit several times at work with no thought of retaliation. I would much rather avoid confrontation than to fight but if a fight is unavoidable then I agree with Grandmaster Epping Atilo “You attack first, do not wait.”. I aim to finish it as quickly as possible. My philosophy has been influenced by the first style of Kungfu I was exposed to.
Their opening mantra was
Avoid before check.
Check before maim.
Maim before kill.
Do not kill.
and by the first kungfu book that I read which had a section on Tibetan White Crane whose key principles are
1. Sim,   (Evade)      
2. Jeet,   (Intercept)    
3. Chune,  (Penetrate)
4. Chon  (Destroy)
yijing zhidong

use stillness to overcome movement
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Postby Tarandus » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:07 pm

Yat-Chum: my words were:

'I don't believe in using devastating techniques unless there is absolutely no alternative - for instance, against an armed opponent or against multiple opponents where it might be necessary to disable one of them to make the others lose heart.'


In the first of the two street fights I described, I did in the end have to use a strike, in the second one I didn't, apart from the failed kick. I still believe that if I had used serious violence in both cases there would have been repercussions afterwards. Like the systems you mention, Tai Chi also has the potential to use a single blow to finish a fight. In some ways, I think we are 'singing from the same hymn sheet'. But I think that in a society in which people are increasingly carrying knives and now guns more and more as well, it's important not to provide attackers with an excuse for subsequent revenge attacks. Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby Tarandus » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:30 am

Yatish, thanks for comparing notes from your experiences. Your last sentence about the person who draws his arm back before a punch, thus giving time and scope for attack, reminds me of Wang Tsung-yueh's Treatise on T'ai-chi Chuan, as annotated by Yang Lu Chan:

'Respond to speed with speed and slowness with slowness. ... If the opponent approaches slowly, I respond with yielding and following. This principle is very clear. If the opponent comes at me with great speed, how can I use yielding? In this case, I must respond by using the method of T'ai-chi "intercept energy" and the principle of "not late and not early". It is just like concealing troops in ambush to intercept the enemy. What do we mean by "not late and not early"? When the opponent has already launched his attack, but has not yet landed, I intercept his arm with my hand before it becomes straight. This will immediately deflect the attack. This is how to repulse a frontal attack ...'


Also, Yang Lu Chan said:

'In sparring we find that opponents vary greatly according to speed. If my opponent's hands are slow, I must stick, join, adhere and follow. If my opponent's hands are fast and he strikes wildly, then I must keep my mind calm, my courage strong, and observe his final blow as it approaches. Concentrating on one place, I neutralise to the left and right and return the strike. There is a saying that "only a sensitive hand can walk a goat on a tether." This is the principle in T'ai-chi Chuan of responding to speed with speed and following slowness with slowness.'


Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby silverfox » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:32 am

A great book to be read by all martial artists styles aside is Blitz Defence by Grandmaster Keith Kernspecht. He is Sigung Leung Ting's highest ranked Wing Tsun student and is in charge of all of Europe since the 70's.

The book discusses psychological reasons why fights occur and how to defuse them in different phases verbally and physically. How to stand casually while still protecting yourself, what body language to look for before an attack gets too close, what to expect from adrenaline surges, how to knock out the opponent immediately, how to draw the attention of witnesses, how to answer in a legal situation, etc..

The book is much better than I could possibly describe here, but will definately open the eyes and minds of all serious martial artists who are not used to being trained for an actual thug encounter on the street and are just training in their schools.

Taking a beating on the street or being merciful does not ensure the fact that revenge will not happen. Grandmaster Leung Ting always says "when not using Wing Tsun be merciful, when using Wing Tsun be merciless"

Try not to fight as long as you can, run away, verbally defuse it, and be kind, but if you feel that you have to fight, cannot escape for whatever reason, fight without mercy and knock him out because your opponent will do far worse to you.

Your opponent is like a steel razor sharp fan on high, whirring around. If I want to end the fight (shut off the switch) I don't mix it up with him and try to be nice ( stick my finger in the fan) I shut off the switch. I knock him out. No fancy moves just devastating strikes that end a fight you didn't want and couldn't escape from.

No Mercy is your survival, either that or you end up in a pool of blood waking up with a broken jaw, ribs, and broken teeth, or worse you don't wake up at all. No Mercy, knock em out quickly with full intention, strike 1st, hard, and fast.

Thanks,

Scott
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and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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Postby Tarandus » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:19 pm

Scott, this sounds interesting. In Tai Chi, Yang Cheng Fu instructed to 'stike without mercy' as a follow up to many defensive postures, but he didn't mean that always had to be the way. More important is to sap the opponent's will to continue. Taking out an opponent with a single strike sounds enticing at first, but what happens if you hurt him so badly that he can think only of revenge, and next time you meet him, he's carrying a gun? This I think was the point I was trying to make in a roundabout sort of way. Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby silverfox » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:12 pm

Hey T,

Knocking someone out is actually a safer way to protect them as opposed to playing around with them which like I said is like trying to stick your finger in the fan. Just shut off the fan and the problem is out of your hands and in the hands of the police. If you hand over a bloody broken thug to the police, in court you look like the bad guy. A knockout is clean control.

You said that more important is to sap the opponent's will to continue.

How would you do this without hurting him too badly ot getting yourself hurt in the process?

I feel that if a thug is starting with you the first time, then showing them who is boss is what makes them lose heart. I don't believe a show of defensive skill is going to make a PCP induced, steroid using drunk (exaggeration) lose heart or stop wanting to kill you. Only putting this type of person down fast and hard will end the confrontation.

Revenge is always a dangerous factor I agree, which is why we as martial artists have to be more alert and aware. I would think that certain situations could be avoided a 2nd time. If they could not then legal action should be involved before the fact, since you would have already gone to court from the first time he attempted to assault you. Lastly, if the assailant did present a gun at close range then I would say definately no mercy is allowed at all, and I hope your gun defense is up to speed.

All these hypothetical scenarios are excellent topics for discussion and the extremes we discuss are just that. Extreme measures for extreme situations that I pray none of us will ever have to be in.

I greatly appreciate your views on this topic and would like if you could explain your statements just a little more clearly. :)

Thanks,

Scott
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GLMC

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Postby Tarandus » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:39 pm

Scott: thanks for your reply. Well, actually, I did manage to ward off repeated punches and kicks and attempts to burn me on the arm with a lighted cigarette when attacked here by three men as I described above. And as a matter of fact, I did run into them again, but they didn't try anything that time, apart from being mildly abusive. But if I'd knocked one of them out, I don't know what their subsequent reaction would have been. I'm talking about parrying and evasion, not trading blow for blow and 'slugging it out'. I really don't understand how 'knocking someone' out is safer than trying to keep up blocking, parrying and evasion for as long as possible. If you knock someone out, are you going to be considerate enough to catch them by the arm as they lose consciousness so as to prevent them concussing themselves when they collapse on the pavement? Personally, I don't think I could rely on a knockout punch to the head not actually causing brain damage to my opponent, either directly or when he subsequently fell over. As for going to court after an assault, this is all very well in theory, but having practised as a lawyer in serious cases for the prosecution and having had to abandon cases when the evidence turned out not to be worth the paper it was written on when it was finally heard in court, I really don't think anyone can rely on going to court without very clear evidence that is going to put the matter beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. You may know you're in the right, but getting the prosecution to convince a jury of that beyond a reasonable doubt is another matter entirely and depends wholly on the quality of your evidence. There is of course, the related issue of proportionate self defence and I believe a knock out blow such as you describe would expose you to the possibility of prosecution yourself for assault (or worse). Of course, injunctions, etc., can be sought after you've been assaulted the first time round, but if the opponent is such a criminal as to assault you in the fist place, he is hardly likely to obtemper these. I agree that if a gun is presented at close range, no mercy should be showed at all, and I would refer you to what I said on that subject in the thread I started on Dim Mak. I hope this clarifies my views a little, and I agree that is important to discuss these issues, especially in this day and age when theoretical possibilities are more and more likely to become an unexpected 'nightmare scenario'. Kind regards, T.
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Postby Tarandus » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:41 pm

Scott: correction - I meant, the thread I started called 'Article on Unarmed defence against Knife attack'. Kind regards, t.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby silverfox » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:46 pm

Hey T,

You should really check out the Blitz Defence Program we use in Wing Tsun. I mentioned the book in an earlier post. This program covers everything you previously mentioned in a scientific and legalistic manner. How to KO and protect the falling person is covered, drawing witness attention, how to act defensive vocally and with your posture in front of witnesses who are watching, and what is expected of you in court to plead a successful self defense case.

Scientifically the amount of brain damage you would inflict with a one time KO is not going to cause long term damage as is evident in boxing and MMA athletes, people are quite durable except over long term repeated exposure, this is where you see significant damage.
Also not all the KO shots in the program are to the head only one is and it is to the chin, so you have other options.

I think we are just 2 different types of Martial Artists. You are a Taiji practioneer and I am a Wing Tsun practioneer, so of course we will see this issue differently and thats the beauty of the martial arts. I respect the fact that you were highly skilled to ward off the strikes from a group of 3 and be patient. That is just not my way though.

I appreciate your input.

Thanks,

Scott
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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Postby Tarandus » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:24 am

Scott: thanks very much for your reply. You're quite right: the martial arts all have equally valid approaches to the same end and practitioners of various branches can always learn from one another and compare notes. I am very interested in the book you mention and had forgotten the reference when I posted my last message. I am going to add the book to my 'wish list' on Amazon, though as my wish list currently has about fifty items, it's going to have to jostle with other contenders for my limited budget! It sounds a very useful book, though, and even it it's published in the US for instance, I'm sure I will be able to make the appropriate adaptations on the legal issues for use here. Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby E. Hinds » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:53 pm

Personally I don't believe in the "wear them down until they don't want to fight" approach. It's not that I don't think it's possible, because I'm sure there are some extremely skilled people who could pull it off. One of my personal guiding principles is "Any fight that lasts longer than 2 minutes is decided by luck, not skill". No matter how hard you train, you will make mistakes. In a defensive situation, where you're already freaked out, pumped up, and pissed off, it will all come at you too fast. Humans have incredible survival instincts. The first punch or shove that comes at you, you are going to get so pissed off you're wouldn't believe it. All you'll think of is stopping them from doing it again. Trying to draw out the fight is just going to get you and the opponent more injured, and possibly get you badly beaten. It is easier, more effective, more reliable, and in fact kinder to just knock them out ASAP. It's really not even very hard. A strong, accurate hook to the temple, which admittedly takes a little training to land dependably, can easily knock someone out in one hit. They'll have one hell of a headache the next day and a nice bump, but not much more than that. Revenge is of course always a concern, but in my experience if they're going to come after you again, it doesn't matter at all what you did to them, because it's all about saving face and very little about whether or not you actually did anything excessive.
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Postby Tarandus » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:54 pm

Eric,

Opponents and circumstances are countless and there is no hard and fast rule, but there are principles.

'Using energy is not correct;
Not using strength is not correct.
To be soft but hard is correct....

Bravery is not correct;
Timidity is not correct.
Strong courage and keen perception are correct.

Striking people is not correct;
Not striking people is not correct.
Causing the opponent to mentally surrender is correct.'


Yang, Lu Chan, The Method of Achieving Perfect Clarity in T'ai-Chi.


Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby Inga » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:07 pm

Tarandus,

I somewhat hesitate to enter into the conversation here, as firstly I am also a shaolin kung fu student and secondly, I totally agree with Scott and Eric. I do not want you to feel ganged up on, I have been following the discussion with interest. However your most recent quotes, for me, don't answer towards your argument so much as they answer to Scott's. Scott's point was to defuse the situation or avoid if at all possible, but once engaged, to end it quickly. You are not looking to fight, but if you are attacked, your assailant is not likely to give up unless he is bested or is interrupted. It is more logical and efficient to end things quickly. Your approach is very romantic, in that, somehow there is a way where everyone comes away okay - a "happy" ending. There is not. From there one has to work out damage limitations, and I think that if one has been unsuccessful in mentally turning away one's opponent, one must quickly create a physical surrender. This takes strong courage and keen perception (being confident where to hit and doing so with skill) and I think is the way "to be soft but hard".

Still an excellent discussion, particularly useful in that so many have had real life situations for examples. I too am impressed that you were able to ward off three men at once with little injury, it's a testament to your training. I am sure you will continue to do what feels right for you. And so it should be. It may be, to rephrase Scott, we have to agree to disagree on finishing moves.

Cheers Inga
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