Realistic Fight Ending Strikes and Sparring Favorites

Discuss sparring, training applications in a competition environment, or even in real-life (fighting, self-defence). Please no violence!
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Postby Tarandus » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:23 pm

Inga: thanks for your reply. I don't think the notion I present is a 'romantic' one: it worked for me in Brighton and when I was attacked in London it worked initially but then I had to go on the offensive when the attackers clearly weren't going to give up. I'm not against knock out blows in themselves, but the right occasion for them has to be judged. The more opponents there are simultaneously, the more desirable it might be to knock one of them out, but then again, in such a situation, in my experience, unless you are very superior in your martial arts skills, all your attention is likely to be taken up for a long time with just defending while you wait for the opportunity to strike. Tai Chi is not based on 'romantic' notions, but is an entirely practicable system for self defence given the right teacher, a willingness to think about ones practice and be self-critical, and above all, a keen desire to practise a great deal. There are of course, numerous 'finishing moves' in Tai Chi but they tend to be used sparingly. Of course, though, if the opponent is armed, then that presents an entirely different set of considerations. Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby Inga » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:49 pm

Hi Tarandus,

I do apologise if I gave the impression I thought the practice of Tai Chi was "romantic" in anyway, or in some way of lesser value to other martial arts. I certainly do not believe so, nor did I intend to imply that. What I poorly tried to convey was that I felt the concept of being compassionate to ones attackers (and this is the impression you were giving me) by deflecting blows but not returning them was a "romantic" ideal, I suspect I used a lousy word to express myself. You have experience I do not. And I say again, I was impressed with your training, what you accomplished was no small feat. If I could defend myself against one attacker I would be very, very fortunate. Against three, I would have no chance. None. Whether I will one day is another matter, but probably not. :) But while the practical experience has lent itself to this discussion, the original question was more conceptual I think. I do not know if any of the contributors to this conversation, or readers of it for that matter have ever in a real life situation dealt a finishing blow in a fight. But we train for such situations, well, we do in kung fu. It is about the art, but also, for many of us, about the fight as well. I take your point fully, that being attacked by three men may only leave time for protecting one's body, and using defensive blocks. However, as we discuss on other threads quite frequently, one of the things a martial artist needs to have is detachment in combat, the ability to relax the mind as much as possible, see possibilities and act with precision and skill as swiftly as can be...to not "think" but act. Even knowing this I find it nigh on impossible to do when I spar. Partly as I am still relatively new to my training and also I have a ridiculously "busy" mind. A finishing move would need to be trained and in your instincts in order to be of use when you needed it. I don't think I would want to be judging in a stituation if I was attacked, such as you were. When one is placed in such an extreme situation I think one has every right to not only defend but respond, and the response should be to end it as soon as possible. I am speaking hypothetically of course, and you speak from actual experience, and I do acknowledge that in this sense you know an awful lot more than me about "real life fights". But I would not consider a punch to my head any different to a knife swipe to my gut, both are intended to hurt me, and both are worthy of the same attention, equally. The response needs to be adjusted though to protect oneself. I guess what I'm saying is with regard to "considering" or "judging" your attack, I feel fists are weapons as much as broken glass, a knife or rock.

Thank you Tarandus for sharing your experiences and thoughts on this idea of "favourite finishing moves". I have learned a lot! I have been thinking about how within our styles of martial arts we need to apply them differently given physiques and skill levels. For example, a person of Eric's size (over 6' and 15 stone) is going to have more success with one technique, while myself at 5' 4" and 8.5 stone is going to need something more akin to what Scott would use, he is closer in size to me at 11.5 stone. Then there is the fact that Eric has trained for over a decade, Scott double that and I have two and half years under my belt. They have instincts and muscle memory I have not gained yet. And how fascinating to see that there would be different philosophical views to figure in as well. So much to think about!! But this is the time to do it, not during the encounter.

Peace.
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Postby yat_chum » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:41 am

Ayup Ingeur, I' uz opinion it's near possible ta feight mooar than 'un opponent, t' skill is i' onny fightin 'un apeth when fightin multiple assailants. Ideeur is 'a' theur tek ont' nearest apeth ta thee immobilise 'im 'n manipulate 'im sa 'a' 'e 'is eur shield against t' others. Uz owd Win Chun Sigung wor superb a' dis. Ahl try ta finn' eur videoa clip ta demonstrate wha' ah mean. :)
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Postby yat_chum » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:49 am

Ayup Ingeur, dis shows wha' ah mean bur ahl skeg for eur betta example. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1sK5zBRbec
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Postby Inga » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:19 am

Ay up our Jo, thanks for the dulcet Yorkshire tones..very soothing (which i need at the mo, i've got a bloody awkward book in the laying press just now an tis making me all snarly).

Thank you for the video. Scott has just returned from an intensive Wing Tsun testing session in Texas where he had to fight his way out of a circle of attackers. Hopefully he will elaborate more for us, but your video was very illustrative. Watching this I can see some of what Tarandus was saying about judging a situation, one would have to assess who was more skilled, who was more aggressive, and who may or may not have a weapon. But even as this is being worked out on one level, the mind must be turning everything to one's advantage, finding weaknesses and using the enemies mistakes. I see what you mean about the human shield. Haha, I was thinking, I would just have to stand behind one of those chaps and I would be "shielded". I suppose the use of chin na may help with that, I think that would be my best bet for immobilising.

I think I am right in translating your post as:

When fighting multiple assailants, make it a one on one fight by immobilising the one nearest to you and using him as a shield against the others. You add that this is a characteristic of Wing Tsun. And you say you will find me a video to show me what you mean, and that you found one, but you are looking for an even better one. :) Please correct me if'n I'm wrong, girl has been gone for far too long.
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Postby yat_chum » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:34 am

Hi Tarandus, something that Inga said has reminded me of my supervisor in my first job. He was a very skilled martial artist and had a lot of real life fight experience. I remember him telling me how he had once thought that he could defeat someone in a fight without hurting them. He would block his opponents blows and place his hand on them to show that he could have hit them. The trouble is that unlike you or I who would realise that we are being outclassed and stand down most people in the street can’t see this and just carry on and in the end he would have to hurt them to stop the altercation. He eventually realised that it was better to knock out his opponent than to have drawn out battles.

"Morality comes before and after the fight." Grandmaster Abner Pasa, Balitok Eskrima
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Postby Tarandus » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:00 pm

Inga, thanks a lot for your reply and your kind words about my capacity to defend myself. Well, one is only ever as good as ones last fight, and it would be rash of me to suppose that there might not have been some luck involved on both occasions. On the other hand, my belief in T'ai Chi is very strong, and I really believe that that belief is the absolute foundation for successful practice and implementation of it: even if one cannot readily believe all the miracles claimed for it, one should at the very least be readily 'willingly to suspend disbelief'. Not replying to your points in any particular order, on the question of physique, I would again quote from Yang Lu Chan who said:

Sizing Up an Opponent

When squaring off with an opponent, first observe whether his physique is great or small. If it is great, then he must have considerable brute strength, and I should respond with superior skill. If he is of slight build, then he will be skillful, and I must attack with power. In this way, I overcome the weak with strength and the mighty with cleverness. Regardless of size, if my opponent adopts high postures, then I must make use of low postures; if he adopts low postures, then I must make use of high ones. This is the method of high and low, yin and yang ...


To return to 'knockouts', I still think that they should only be used when necessary, but I suppose that the word 'necessary' might have a different meaning to different individuals, according to temperament and training, even under the same circumstances. Personally, I'm a bit squeamish about hitting people. Whether that's a fault in me, I really wouldn't know, but it's the case, so partly out of temperament and partly because Tai Chi is primarily defensive (in my view), I have tended just to defend when assaulted, though as I've mentioned, in London I had to go on the offensive eventually. This wasn't a question of 'slugging it out'; or rather, it was from their point of view, but not from mine, as I just parried and blocked. None of them on the second occasion I mentioned came to any injury. I had a bruise on my head as a result of being kicked there when I fell over, but I blocked everything else after I stood up again. As for the other occasion, in London, yes, I might have injured the person against whom I used elbow strike. Rather than come to any hard and fast conclusions - I am sure this subject will 'run and run' -, I would like to figure a hypothetical example. Suppose I'm in a supermarket. I'm a man, of course, but a woman thinks I have butted in in front of her in the queue. She's a bit pyschotic, obviously, and starts flying at me with hands and feet, punches and kicks. Should I deal her a knockout blow to end the confrontation, or should I try to content myself with parrying and blocking? Well, if the answer is that of course, she's a woman and I'm a man and therefore I shouldn't knock her out, I would reply that that proposition is sexist, and that what is 'sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander', and that accordingly, if I am not entitled to knock out a woman, then neither am I entitled to knock out a man ..... Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby Inga » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:56 pm

"I really believe that belief is the absolute foundation for successful practice and implementation of [martial arts]. "

I have taken the liberty of broadening your statement as I think this a somewhere we both agree. Belief is vital for giving your all, and the best of it at that. And I use belief on all levels, including the intellectual and spiritual senses.

I also agree with you I would not punch someone in line who flared up in a moment of anger, man or woman. This type of attack, from someone who is not a street fighter or martial artist, is not looking to really harm me, or use skill against me. Of course, your statement about sauce for the goose/gander can be flipped as well, in that, if you are entitled to knock out a man who attacks you, you are also entitled to knock out a woman. I think one should look past gender and see intent, skill and physique. It's likely a woman is going to be smaller and less powerful than you, but if she is committed enough to attacking she deserves whatever may befall her. If you use minimum force to restrain her, because she is a woman, and you feel culturally/emotionally inclined to be gentle, I would fully respect that. Ultimately however, if someone is fighting you in earnest, not rebuffing you in the queue, but putting your person at risk, then I think you are entitled to do what is necessary to stop the attack. I think where we disagree is how one achieves that.
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Postby Tarandus » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:41 pm

Inga, I'm not sure that we disagree very much after all on how to achieve the purpose of stopping an attack that is really in earnest, though I agree that we might differ in how soon we might respectively resort to a knockout blow. Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby yat_chum » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:50 am

Kickass in a Crisis - Self-Defence Demo from Chris Crudelli
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-ZaU2r78uo

Interested to hear everyones opinions
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Self Defense

Postby silverfox » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:10 am

Hi Joe,

Sorry to take so long to get back to ya. I think Crudelli has some interesting points, but I feel that his methods do not approach a conflictual situation with the legal ramifications in mind as is evident from him slamming some guy's head in a car door. That was awesome by the way, he doesn't even hesitate, just cracks that skull.

Seriously though even in conflict you have to legally protect the other person as well or else the courts frown upon your lack of control and consider your martial ability to be excessive. The Blitz Defense book by Wing Tsun Grandmaster Keith Kernspecht is an excellent resource for these topics, which I know I have previously mentioned, but to date it is the best I have read in covering all areas of a conflictual scenario legally.

I think Crudelli is a cool guy though and I really enjoy watching his clips on youtube. You should check out his Mind Body Kickass Moves Wing Tsun clip and if people are interested in seeing Blitz Defense in action check out the media clips on www.ewto.com.

Just beware the techniques look basic and primitive, but if you understand the premise and context in which they are presented it will make alot more sense. Also the practioneers speak German so you really need to read the book to know what they are saying to diffuse the situation legally before they strike the KO targets.

Thanks for the link, and keep em coming Joe!

Thanks,

Scott Tarbell
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and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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Postby DOM » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:37 am

This guy is no martial artist just a thug,boardering on the line being criminal for teaching in this manner.To show people how to protect them selves in this manner is negligent,dishonrable and mostly unlawful.If some one is trying to kill you or your family then by all meens you must do what it takes.But to just smash some ones head and face on the ground or wall for throwing a punch at you is attempted murder.This guy is a good example why we as martial artist must train in a moor realistic way and to assume that most people now a days are trained and maybe from this clown.Way to many martial arts feel the probability of conflict is rare,and even more rare against a trained individual.Sorry not so true any longer.Martial arts schools are on every convener and MMA has swept the nation and is now world wide.
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Postby DOM » Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:20 am

The video posted above is not the one I was refering to sorry.That one is actualy pretty good.
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Postby silverfox » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:04 am

Hey Dom,

I totally agree with you about Crudelli's methods and MMA turning up on every street corner. This is an interesting time for martial arts in the world. I train traditional martial arts, but I do love MMA. I train MMA on the side to improve this area of my self defense, for I too feel that the street guy is no longer just a street guy. Now we have to deal with some martial artists that just want to fight and possess no moral fiber. These are the same people who would stomp your head in without thinking twice except now they are trained and dangerous.

I don't think these types of people are just found in MMA it is also in the traditional martial arts as well. I know alot of great MMA stylists with wonderful hearts. I cannot label anyone art as producing bad apples, but I do feel that is is more prevalent in MMA than in any other art out there right now.

This makes you wonder if there will be a filtering out process eventually like criminal record checks before allowing a student to join a school. If the student has a history of violent crime or if it develops while training I would turn them away immediately. Perhaps this will become a national standard among schools teaching the martial arts.

Any Ideas?

Thanks,

Scott Tarbell
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GLMC

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re:

Postby charp choi » Wed May 02, 2007 5:40 am

Mind Body and Kickass moves was interesting and entertaining.
That new clip was just plain silly.
Especially the bar fight.
How many of us are gonna be able to kick like that in the local boozer.
I just was not convinced about the techniques he used although the car door bit was useful :shock:
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Postby misterwhite » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:53 am

I personally would never rely on the kick to the groin.

I fought a Shoto-kan black belt in a street fight when I was young. He kicked me so hard in the groin that my testicles and everything for 8 inches around that point turned black for a very long time. I still had some bruising left 4 months later.


I won the fight.


I didn't even feel the kick that did it until the next morning and then I couldn't move without agony. But his kick at the time was like getting kicked on the forearm, no effect.

Since that time I have always doubted the reliability of a groin kick.
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Postby Yue » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:14 pm

Mr. White: I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but groin kicks HURT. I've kicked people in the groin and they end up on the ground in the fetal position, crying. I'm talking grown men here. However, my "devestating technique" would probably be a palm to the solar plexus, backfist or roundhouse kick to the jaw, or a heel kick to the knee. Groin kicks are far too anticipated.
Anything goes.
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Postby joeblast » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:09 pm

are we talking top of the foot in the general vicinity of the testes, making some contact, or toe making direct huiyin contact here (nutshot implied)? both are 'kicked in the stones,' but the immediate effects arent necessarily the same. having the huiyin hit makes far more of an impact on your leg strength than just having the testes take a good rattling. I've taken some nut shots before that have hurt pretty badly, but I could have easily ignored that level of pain if the need was there (i.e. in danger of some severe beating and or death.) then again, it was only nut contact and not something more severe. (look on youtube, you can see vids of shaolin monks getting kicked in the stones and they take it like a shot on the arm.) sure it hurts, but different people can tolerate pain to different levels. being a grown man is no accurate indicator ;) (not to mention being hopped up on adrenaline in a fight...when you're charged up, hits do not register like they otherwise would.)
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Postby Yue » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:48 pm

I kick with the flat top of the foot angled slightly back away from the testes so the toes hit the huiyin as well.
Anything goes.
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Re: Realistic Fight Ending Strikes and Sparring Favorites

Postby Phalanxpursos » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:06 pm

silverfox wrote:Also what are some of your favorite sparring techniques that are just fun to play with?


Time Stretching...

I've been told of a certain seasnake which has a very unusual method of attracting it's prey, it will lie at the bottom of the ocean as if wounded. Then it's enemies will approach and yet it will lie quite still, then his enemies will take little bites of it.

And yet it remains still...
Strategemata Liber Secundus;
"VIII: Restore Morale with Firmness"
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