The violent female.

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The violent female.

Postby Tarandus » Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:43 pm

Recent research has suggested that in chimpanzee societies, it is the females, not the males, that have invented weapons for killing smaller animals and who are routinely involved in thus hunting them rather than the males of the species. As chimpanzees are usually regarded as our 'nearest relatives', perhaps the research throws some light on the origins of human violence - which has perhaps (arguably) therefore been wrongly attribtuted to the male of the species. An account of the research can be viewed here: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ars_2.html Kind regards, T.
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Postby Dvivid » Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:59 am

That is silly. Men rape, murder and pillage like nobody's business. 99.9% of serial killers are men. And I suspect most pirates are men too. Pirates are bad.
Last edited by Dvivid on Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Inga » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:40 am

I suppose hunting an animal to eat it to survive can be called violent. My OED defines violent as using great physical force, and science proves that biologically men are (on the whole) stronger than women. But I gather from your context that you were meaning aggressive (and perhaps cruel?). I would call hunting an animal because it is fun to kill it "violent", in that sense, and I think far more men are hunters than women. Having said that, if you are talking strictly about levels of aggression in our society I think women are as equally guilty of that as men. Ask any middle aged schoolgirl about the pressures of having the right hair/designer top/shoes/handbag/boyfriend/makeup/etc etc and they can tell you tales of woe, I am sure. I am curious if you have read any James Redfield, and if you have, what your thoughts are about it, as Mr. Redfield believes we are evolving as a species to a more harmonious, homogenized and peaceful race. Personally he scares the willies out of me, but, I do believe in a lot of his underpining principles.
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Postby Tarandus » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:42 pm

Dvivid: there are very few violent criminals who do not have wives or girlfriends. The latter are only profiting indirectly of course, from their partners' brutal activities. Does that matter? Or is it an example of the grossest hypocrisy: living off the proceeds of violence, but taking care not to 'get their hands dirty'? Regards, T.
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Postby Tarandus » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:45 pm

Inga: I was merely saying that the article perhaps points to the origins of human violence in the most general sense. How, when or why that attribute came to devolve onto the male sex from the female, even assuming the chimpanzee analogy is true, is far from me to be able to tell. Kind regards, T.
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Postby Tarandus » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:57 pm

Dvivid: this is what I said in my original message:

As chimpanzees are usually regarded as our 'nearest relatives', perhaps the research throws some light on the origins of human violence - which has perhaps (arguably) therefore been wrongly attribtuted to the male of the species.


Kindly read this passage slowly again and at your leisure and then inform me how you can possibly suppose that I could in any way have been inferring the conclusion which you attribute to my message? Or am I perhaps to be criticised for choosing my words too carefully? Kind regards, T.
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Postby Inga » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:58 am

"...which has perhaps (arguably) therefore been wrongly attribtuted..."

It would seem that Dvivid was arguing the other side, as you suggested some may. It is not clear what you are inferring with your original post. To me it sounded like science trying to prove the Garden of Eden. I thought you were trying to provoke comment.

Again I mention James Redfield. If you have not read his books, I think you would enjoy them. Also, this conversation makes me think of the movie, The Gods Must Be Crazy. Have you seen this? How a peaceful African tribe is utterly torn apart when a pilot throws a Coke bottle out of his window and it lands in the village (from the Gods). It is like nothing they have either seen and the desire to possess it leads to terrible violence. The film is actually about the journey of one of the men to take it to the edge of the world to throw it back to the Gods. It's a wonderful film.
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Postby Tarandus » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:34 am

Inga: the point that Dvivid's message implied that I was trying to make from the original posting was that females are at least as violent if not more so than males, and he adduced some evidence to disprove that. However, that was not the point at all. I'm afraid I fail to see the connection between the research and the Garden of Eden. Eve according to Genesis was the first to be tempted by the serpent and to eat the forbidden fruit but the consequence of that was shame, not violence. In fact, Cain was the first to commit a violent act, as you will recall. I'm afraid I haven't seen the film, and I am largely very ignorant of the cinema. I hardly ever go and the only DVD I have ever watched is a Yang, Jwing Ming one. Thanks for the recommendation about James Redfield books. I will look into these. My original message was indeed, as you surmise, designed to provoke comment; unfortunately however, it appears only to have provoked misunderstanding. Kind regards, T.
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Postby Inga » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:11 pm

I must admit Tarandus I misunderstand a lot of people, and by the same token many folks misunderstand me. I am a very awkward girl that way, my heart is good, but I do have my own set of beliefs and my own way of going about things. I like things like this that challenge me to think, and, it's good of you to post them and to continue the conversation, whether the comments are what you expected or not. Such is the beauty of the forum in that there is room for all of us to express ourselves.

James Refield is extremely ubiquitous, you will have no trouble finding a copy of his works. Here is his web site: http://www.celestinevision.com/

Peace, Inga
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Postby Tarandus » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:56 am

Inga: I'll visit that website. I think we all get misunderstood. I for my part am often misunderstood as people think I'm 'pedantic' whereas my justification for that is that if we don't all strive to be reasonably precise in our use of language, then what hope can we possibly have of ever being mutually understood? - A task that is very difficult at the best of times, even with a careful approach to language. It's odd that scientists are never accused of being 'pedantic' when they use their complex vocabulary with precision. If their vocabulary was not highly developed and precise as to the the things referred to, there would be a great deal of confusion in science and very little progress; the same would be true of Medicine. But in general discussions about religion, politics, general human issues, etc, people often get resentful when I insist on precision of vocabulary and arguments that are logically consistent. Lawyers, too are often unfairly accused of using language obscurely or pedantically. But Law is a highly developed science: the science of Justice. It, too needs its complex terminology to refer to difficult concepts. Without these, the Law would be even more uncertain than it is and those who resorted to Law to resolve differences would be even worse off as a result. I don't know what it's like in the US, but here in Britain there is a general tendency, particularly among those under about 30 to use very sloppy vocabulary. In fact, it's 'cool' to be inarticulate, to be virtually monosyllabic and say 'like' and 'man' every other word as meaningless fillers. What is particularly lamentable about this tendency is its prevalence among University students. It is as if they are deliberately and wilfully seeking to impoverish their intellects. I find this whole culture of 'cool' very ugly and demoralising. It's almost impossible to have a decent conversation with anyone anymore, to penetrate the mask of 'cool' and get to what is actually on anyone's mind behind the mask - assuming of course, that they have not indeed deprived themselves of the vocabulary with which to recognise their own thoughts and opinions, let alone describe them ... I find the whole fashion for being 'cool' in both dress but moreover manners to be utterly pretensious in a very negative and nihilistic sort of way. Perhaps it is a universal mask for a generalised personal insecurity. Kind regards, T.
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Postby Dvivid » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:33 am

Hi, It was an interesting article. Tarandus, you did say "arguably"...I make no assumptions on your feelings toward women. I was mostly just writing a light-hearted response to participate in general...

It seems the point of the article really is not about the origin of human violence, though it is an interesting observation, but more so the intelligence and creativity of female chimps...they create weapons to hunt and provide...whereas conversely, males often fight and kill simply for dominance in their territory.
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Postby joeblast » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:01 am

Tarandus: sometimes people get pedantic mixed up with ostentatious :) At times its tough to be precise without people thinking you're pontificating! Context is key - its something I've wrangled with growing up, striving for accuracy in conveyance of ideas. People tend to take offense and think you are 'correcting' even if you're merely adding to a point! 8)
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Postby Tarandus » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:11 pm

Joeblast: I appreciate what you're saying, but usually it's not me that's doing the pontificating, but someone who's trying to persuade me of a point of view which they can't even argue. Then when you point out inconstencies, etc, they're the ones that get angry and accuse you of being arrogant! And as a matter of fact, if people actually do feel 'corrected' maybe it's actually because they have been but aren't man enough to admit it. Usually their reaction is 'O.K. so what's your view on the subject then?' To which I very often reply that I don't actually have a view, I just know that theirs doesn't stand up. This usually gets people very angry indeed! But who's actually the arrogant one? After all, in these circumstances, it's not me who's the one trying to force an opinion down someone's throat based on shoddy or non-existent reasoning. Kind regards, T.
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Postby Tarandus » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:37 pm

Dvivid: you have a point here, though another summary of the research suggests that females have evolved spears to find a niche for meat that is unexplored by males (the males mostly hunt colobus monkeys with their bare hands). These particular females use spears to hunt bushbabies, by thrusting the spears into their nests. One point being made by the article is that it is the females, not the males, that have invented tools for hunting though both sexes hunt. I don't know to what extent if any, this throws any light on the evolution of early hominid behaviour, but the article seems to suggest that at best it might have some relevance. Kind regards, T.
'Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions. Live the questions now. You will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.' Rainer Maria Rilke.
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Postby Tarandus » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:39 pm

Dvivid: I forgot to include the link in my last message. Also, thanks for pointing out my misunderstanding of your earlier reply. Here's the link: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn11234
Kind regards, T.
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Postby yeniseri » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:23 pm

All of the wars, to my knowledge, since the beginning of time, have been done by men! I have never seen apes invade a country ot shoot weapons. Perhaps man with monkey mind, may be seen as an ape!
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Postby yat_chum » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:35 am

How do you define war?
30 hornets vs. 30,000 bees
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=upOgOBI7H6s
Note they are all female.
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Postby Inga » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:55 am

Oh my. Yet another reason to detest wasps/hornets. I wish we could teach the bees kung fu.
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Postby Dvivid » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:55 am

No way, that would be awful if bees knew kung fu!?
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Postby yat_chum » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:29 am

yijing zhidong

use stillness to overcome movement
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