Practicality of kicking above the groin

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Practicality of kicking above the groin

Postby Yue » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:54 pm

I have found that kicks to the gut or ribs are very effective at stopping the opponent, but then there's that risk of exposing the groin. My sparring partners and I have a rule that we don't attack the groin, so I don't have to worry about that risk, but in a real fight all they have to do is grab your leg and you're pretty screwed. Have any of you had any experiences with that risk, or is it the kind of warning that should be taken with a grain of salt?
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Postby tico » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:36 am

I know it's very efective to kick, but in a fight you must do it when you know it very well. Surely when you doing a push kick. The oponent must trian this very well to.

When he take you're leg, you have an other leg.

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Postby DOM » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:37 pm

I favor kicking over any other technique. Why,because first of all the legs are much more powerfull, second you are at a much safer distance. It all depends on your skill level and of course your opponents if your able to effectively and safely get off a kick, but that also go's for any technique. I know plenty of martial artist that can kick you in the head and knock you unconscious before you can blink.
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Postby DOM » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:52 pm

I forgot to add that it takes great skill to catch a kick from some one with experience and skill with out walking right into the kick, or possibly breaking your fingers, hand or even an arm trying to do so. Never mind the slew of other technique you mite get blasted with wile trying to catch the kick. The timing speed and skill involved with catching a kick and executing an effective technique with out taking a devastating blow your self takes much time and effort. Of course it all depends on how experienced and skillful your opponent is or is not.
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Postby Inga » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:00 am

I agree with DOM, speed and accuracy are key. In class I often have my kicks caught for two reasons: firstly my partners are longer trained and faster, and secondly my kicks are on the whole awkward and so slow they are telegraphed. I would never kick above the waist in a real fight I could do far more damage with other techniques. I am short and slight in frame, and not especially strong, but I am faster than many in my class. I would use my upper body if I really wanted to injure in a fight, using speed, accuracy from training over and over, and knowledge of vulnerable points. And these I think I would only use if backed up and cornered. Otherwise I would probably use a kick, but to the knee, ankle, or shin and designed to hopefully disable to buy me running time. Training in the classroom is one thing, as you say, you can set the rules such as no kicks to the groin. I use high kicks in class as the people I train with are skilled and controlled, getting hurt is an infrequent accident. I have the luxury of “instant replay” and discussion. But at home I practice snaps and scrapes, keeping low and fast, this is where muscle memory would hopefully serve me well. I think Yue that if you are quick, accurate, and confident in your upper body kick it will probably work in a real fight, especially against someone unskilled in martial arts. A thrusting kick to the chest, if fast and unexpected and you have good root would have your opponent on the ground, or bent over gasping, and gives you the option of taking it to the ground or buys you running time. I can think of at least three people in my class who could do as DOM describes, knock out with a kick to the head, snap, quick, before they even glimpsed it was coming. And they are all of wiry build, average height, ridiculously fast and strong. They also have years and years of training tho, and have used their martial arts.
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Postby Yue » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:23 pm

Thanks for the replies. I've been trying something a little different, standing to the side of my opponent, grabbing the arm on that side and using something like a side cut kick or side heel kick to the ribs while dropping my free arm in a fist just below my groin. I don't see how they could catch my leg or kick me in the groin in that position...what do you guys think? I'm asking all this stuff cause I can never seem to do any damage with a kick to the knee. I've always wondered why that is.
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kicks and avoiding kicks

Postby jfraser » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 am

Catching, deflecting, or blocking (the later of which I don't recommend) can depend upon your stepping and accompaning waist/body skills. Being able to step in all 8 directions of the compass that puts you off line of the kick can be very helpful, assuming you perceive the kick coming at you.

There is a kick in Capoeria, Martello (hammer) that is a push straight heal kick and very effective and hard to deal with because of the hip extension and related added distance given to this kick. The target is behind the opponents back, not at his gut or chest. I believe I have seen a similar kick in Hong Kong Wing Tsun film clips on YouTube. The Wing Tsun version is a kind of heal out and down, and lacks the hip projection of Martello. It seems to work well, also.

Regarding TJQ style heal kicks to the knee (hip rotating the kicking leg/foot outward, that takes practicing this kick many times on a tree over time, to develop real power, and then this is not a kick to be used in sparring. It is a knee/bone breaker.

:)

:)
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Postby lilman » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:02 pm

On the subject of not doing damage when you kick an opponent in the knee, I dont know you personally, but may be due to the angle your hitting the knee and/or the lack of your root when kicking.

ie. When you kick someone in the knee, if their standing in a 70/30 stance with the front knee bent as the weight bearing leg, it will do little or no damage with a heel kick straight on, you would want to go to the angle that will destroy the root and or break the knee. If you kick to the inside at an outside angle, they'll still have a strong root and sense of balance, just maybe a bruised knee. Of course a toe kick to the inner thigh could be effectice too. or 4 finger spaces above the knee on the outside to numb the leg. If their in that kind of stance, you would want to kick from the outside to a diagnal angle in. depending on your kicking power you should be able to bring them down, or at least off balance, or break the knee. Then as far as the root. The root is the most important aspect of power in a fight. Your root should be firm and far into the ground. A straight kick with no root will do no more than push yourself away from the opponent. The trick to that kind of kick in the internal martial arts is stand in a position where your non kicking foot can have a backwards and downwards force into the ground, and concentrate mainly on your root, and slightly behind the point of contact. This way you have your root to back up your leg power, and if your not using physical strength (ie, not an external martial artist), the qi can be lead into the opponents body.

Since the root is so important in internal arts, if you practice one I dont suggest using a lot of high kicks unless you have a guaranteed advantageous position, the opponent is slower than you and you have a specific strategy, or are fighting an amature. I also wouldnt suggest fighting styles where your root is on your hand, or you use a lot of jump kicks and acrobatics. Once your root is gone, and your center of gravity is gone, if your fighting a skilled martial artist, it only takes a gentle push/bump to put you down. I learned that the hard way, and its a lesson I'll never forget.
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Postby Yue » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:46 pm

lilman wrote: I also wouldnt suggest fighting styles where your root is on your hand, or you use a lot of jump kicks and acrobatics.


I don't find that to be a problem. My main style is long fist which uses a lot of double jump kicks, and I've found that if you are swift and jump diagonally instead of vertically to put some force into it, they are nearly impossible to block and even if only one of the kicks connect it's enough to win the fight.
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Postby lilman » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:18 pm

Very true. I have seen longfist performed. But fighting in the external and internal arts are very different. If you try a double jump kick there are many techniques which can be used, not to block, but neutralize or adhere to your kick, and the follow up can be devastating. Im not knocking your practice but to my experience with internal martial arts sparring with a Muy Thai practitioner, a boxer, and a few street fighters, and from what I seen in the streets, a jump kick can be effective, but it can also seal your coffin in a fight. For example, if your in the air, a slight push upward on your kicking foot/leg can easily knock you off your center and if you dont recover in time, you can really hurt yourself.
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:53 am

There is a kick in Capoeria, Martello (hammer) that is a push straight heal kick and very effective and hard to deal with because of the hip extension and related added distance given to this kick. The target is behind the opponents back, not at his gut or chest. I believe I have seen a similar kick in Hong Kong Wing Tsun film clips on YouTube. The Wing Tsun version is a kind of heal out and down, and lacks the hip projection of Martello. It seems to work well, also.
jfraser

Hi jfaser, are you sure you didn't meant a Benção
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pam_sJcqmq4
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J_M_kzn7IyE
Martelo
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Ju1K-4bTQ

In Capoeira, Benção is considered one of the weakest kicks because it is an all or nothing kick and leaves you open to counter attack.

'Usually, kicks that "go for broke" are a two-edged sword, not only dangerous for the person being attacked but for the attacker himself.' Nestor Capoeira, The little Capoeira book.

Wing Chun Kuen kicks
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/art ... kicks.html
yijing zhigang

use stillness to overcome movement
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Postby Yue » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:57 pm

lilman wrote:...if your in the air, a slight push upward on your kicking foot/leg can easily knock you off your center and if you dont recover in time, you can really hurt yourself.


I spent years training tumbling and breakfalls before I'd ever even heard of Long Fist, back in my Judo days. My friend used a technique like you described against my double jump kick recently, and before I knew what was happening I had performed a backward shoulder roll and I was on my feet in a four-six stance. It was awesome! I had different sparring partners recreate the situation, and every time I rolled without thinking and was fine! I'm pretty sure (not to sound overconfident or anything) that I can handle being thrown, and anyway they can only throw me by blocking or taking two extremely swift, powerful kicks. I know how overconfident that sounds, but I'm honestly just going by what my sparring partners say.
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Postby lilman » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:01 am

Right, I agree, which is why I say if you dont recover in time. A lot of martial artists sadly dont practice falling, and even if they do, thats why I dont suggest using jump kicks, cuz even though you didnt get hurt, your kick was rendered useless against the opponent.
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High Kicks

Postby silverfox » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:56 pm

Hi Guys,

Master Yang and I spoke about this one time and he told me if I felt strong at kicking then use it and train it more than my hands. Master Yang told me that when he and Grandmaster Li sparred he could never get past Grandmaster Li's kicks to use his crane.

If we were supposed to just kick below the groin Longfist style wouldn't be Longfist since a kick to the groin is only the middle range not long range.

If kicking is your strength then use it, if not find out what your strength is and use that. We shouldn't limit our abilities due to the misconceptions of those who do not share the same view or abilities in the martial arts. I am very confident in certain aspects of my martial abilities and would gladly risk those abilities to go above the groin because I know what I a as a martial artist am good at and have developed.

The question is are one person's strengths and abilities able to trump another person's strengths and abilities in a fight. We must remember the cycle of combat (hand striking defeats qin na defeats wrestling defeats kicking defeats hand striking) Only if all things are equal which they never tend to be in a fight.

Lastly remember alot of the jumping and hopping in Longfist is used not only to kick, but also to close the distance, angle off, and distract for starters. If your great at something use it.
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Postby Yue » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:35 pm

Thanks for sharing the word of Master Yang, I really appreciate it :D My kicks are fast and they knock back an opponent when they hit anything higher than the groin, so I'm guessing my kicks are my strenghts. My jumps are also very high and far, so...yeah.
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