Leung Jan's example?

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Leung Jan's example?

Postby yat_chum » Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:55 am

When Leung Jan retired from his pharmacy in Foshan he returned to his native Gu Lao village in the Heshan (Hok San) area of Guang Dong province. While there, he taught a few local students his synthesis of Wing Chun. Instead of focussing on teaching the Wing Chun forms, dummy set and weapon sets that were choreographed by the Opera members, he focused his training on the forty short routines and San Sao drills, pole techniques and double knife techniques. These became known as the Gu Lao Sae Sup Dim (40 points) Wing Chun system. The 40 points are the loose expression and application of Wing Chun Kuen. The forms Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee and Muk Yan Jong sets, and the Yee Ji Cern Dao (Ba Jaam Dao) were created later. Training in Chi Sao and San Sao are emphasized, as well as practice of the 40 points on the wooden dummy. Since we consider them "points", as opposed to techniques or postures, their applications can be limitless. Each point teaches numerous concepts, and it is the goal of the Gu Lao sifu to teach one how to combine the 40 points.
Leung Jan was known as the "King of Wing Chun Boxing" and the Gu Lao style of Wing Chun is his final legacy
taken from Gu Lao 40 Point Wing Chun Kuen By Robert Chu

My question is should we follow Leung Jan's example and do away with forms / katas?
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Postby silverfox » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:08 am

Hi Joe,

Do you mean should we abandon forms in wing chun or in all martial styles?

Thanks,

Scott
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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Postby yat_chum » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:25 pm

Hi Scott, I meant martial arts styles in general. Are forms still relevant bearing in mind that Westerners fight in a very different way to Orientals. All forms / katas seem to be only training to fight a against their own or similar styles. (By the way Scott, I do appreciate that Wing Chun forms are very different to those of other styles)
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Postby yat_chum » Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:03 pm

On form, no - form

Too much horsing around with unrealistic stances and classic forms and rituals is just too artificial and mechanical, and doesn't really prepare the student for actual combat. A guy could get clobbered while getting into this classical mess. Classical methods like these, which I consider a form of paralysis, only solidify and constrain what was once fluid. Their practitioners are merely blindly rehearsing routines and stunts that will lead nowhere.
I believe that the only way to teach anyone proper self-defence is to approach each individual personally. Each one of us is different and each one of us should be taught the correct form. By correct form I mean the most useful techniques the person is inclined toward. Find his ability and then develop these techniques. I don't think it is important whether a side kick is performed with the heel higher than the toes, as long as the fundamental principle is not violated. Most classical martial arts training is a mere imitative repetition - a product - and individuality is lost.
When one has reached maturity in the art, one will have a formless form. It is like ice dissolving in water. When one has no form, one can be all forms; when one has no style, he can fit in with any style.


On efficiency and flexibility

In primary freedom, one utilizes all ways and is bound by none, and likewise uses any techniques or means which serves one's end. Efficiency is anything that scores.
Efficiency in sparring and fighting is not a matter of correct classical, traditional form. Efficiency is anything that scores. Creating fancy forms and classical sets to replace sparring is like trying to wrap and tie a pound of water into a manageable shape of paper sack. For something that is static, fixed, dead, there can be a way or a definite path; but not for anything that is moving and living. In sparring there's no exact path or method, but instead a perceptive, pliable, choice-less awareness. It lives from moment to moment.
When in actual combat, you're not fighting a corpse. Your opponent is a living, moving object who is not in a fixed position, but fluid and alive. Deal with him realistically, not as though you're fighting a robot. Traditionally, classical form and efficiency are both equally important. I'm not saying form is not important - economy of form that is - but to me, efficiency is anything that scores. Don't indulge in any unnecessary, sophisticated moves. You'll get clobbered if you do, and in a street fight you'll have your shirt zipped off you.
Bruce Lee
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Postby silverfox » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:47 pm

Hi Joe,

Sorry to take so long, but I had to let this one resonate for a while before approaching such an interesting and controversial topic. I think Bruce Lee was right in a sense of forms taking over sparring is a waste, yet if classical arts are taught with forms and sparring side by side then there is no problem. Bruce Lee learned many forms which gave his body the creative expression he disusses so fervantly. I feel that Bruce may have not wanted to admit this, but he was a very naturally gifted martial genius who didn't need to practice something a thousand times to be able to fight with it, but not everyone has his ability.

Even when you look at what types of techniques Bruce Lee used in JKD you can see that they are of an MMA style. Muay Thai, Boxing, Grappling, etc.. All with the Wing Chun base which is a story for another time.

My point is that Bruce Lee did not strive for a higher level in Martial Arts, he copped out and found easy to use gross motor systems of combat to blend with his incomplete Wing Chun base to formulate a primitive MMA style. I feel that he is a genius for discovering some flaws in Classical Martial Arts and revolutionizing a more realistic, open minded, and aggressive approach to sparring.

Bruce enlightened the minds of many great martial artists worldwide as well as corrupted the minds of many great martial artists worldwide. I know that there is alot of Bruce Lee personality worship out there so don't get me wrong Bruce was a great man , but he was only a man.

Classical Martial Arts and forms training are not just meant for combat, but also as a toolbox, an encyclopedia, and the way to self mastery among all levels of the human experience.

Can training just to fight using no forms and creativity help us to enhance the human experience, reach deep levels of growth and understanding in the martial arts, or know the honor and tradition that comes with adopting a Classical Martial art into one's life?


Thanks,

Scott Tarbell
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

Scott Tarbell
Director of YMAA Amesbury
www.ymaakungfu.com
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:22 pm

Gulao (Pien San) Wing Chun

Pien San (Side Body) Wing Chun originates from the village where Dr. Leung Jan retired after leaving Fatshan. Gulao was his home (a small village in Hessian province). Traditionally in Chinese culture the leading Kung Fu master of the village would teach the village youngsters in order that they would be able to protect their village from bandits and raiders who were prevalent at this time and would prey on the weaker villages. Like all styles of Kung Fu this teaching had two purposes, one was to provide a practical fighting system that would allow the youngsters to defend themselves and their loved ones. The second was to promote health in mind and body to allow the youngsters to live long lives. In addition with the ability to deal out deadly techniques, there must be some responsibility so the Master must teach the youngsters to be mature, responsible people.

Leung Jan therefore taught a method of Wing Chun that was different from the stylized approach he had previously taught in Fatshan. It was quick and easy to pick up being made up of separate techniques (San Sao). That the beginner could repeat in order to strengthen his body and use very quickly in a fighting situation. Yet there was a lot more to Leung Jan's teaching than mere body movements. At a more advanced stage the student would realize that these San Sao actually encompassed all the under-lying principles that make up Wing Chun. Once this was realized the student would be able to apply them with ease to any situation - including fighting with sticks, pole and knife.

Many people today fail to realize that Wing Chun is primarily a set of fighting principles. The basic movements taught are merely a vessel to focus these principles. Today many instructors teach like this, the move must be done this way, rather than focusing on the principle behind the move. This will allow the student to learn much faster, and allow Wing Chun to become a part of themselves rather than a set of foreign movements that a student must repeat with the hope that they may one day assimilate them. This, I believe, was the original intention of Leung Jan.
http://www.josephleewingchun.com/PienSanWingChun.jsp
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:06 am

This topic has been on my mind over the last few days

Thought for the day II
http://www.ymaa.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... &start=360

“All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns.”
Bruce Lee

"Styles tend to not only separate men — because they have their own doctrines and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change. But if you do not have a style, if you just say: Well, here I am as a human being, how can I express myself totally and completely? Now, that way you won't create a style, because style is a crystallization. That way, it's a process of continuing growth." Bruce Lee

What is a form anyway?
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reply to Yat Chum

Postby jfraser » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:20 am

Last May, over lunch and a Conyac, Sifu Ye, Zirmien Quan, of Xiamen, Fujian, said that various styles teach forms to give students "stability", and he recommends that once stability is established, a student choose 3 or 4 techniques, from what ever source, and really work them over and over again, until they are second nature. When needed they will "adapt" themselves to particular situations as needed, without conscious thought.

Not being a master of anything, I would add practicing angular stepping over and over again, is very important. The ones I have the most experience with and still practice are from Serak Serak Silat.

And not making the assumption that an opponent will stay in one place, with their attacking arm hanging out there, as seen in many application demonstrations of many styles (such as on You-tube), is also a very good idea.

:) :wink:
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:47 am

Yee Sup Yee San Sao (Twenty Two Separate Hands)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tSLsEshcASo
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Postby yeniseri » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:01 pm

I see much more function and utility in wing chun than other arts!

The modern attitude seems to be that knowing a multitude of forms is also knowing function and many people are fooled/decieved when they do not know the function. We have to address the 'why' of this disparity but it appears that most people are not taught the function because said teachers' themselves do not know it or it becomes a level of 'spiritual materialism' to be sold to the highest bidder.
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Postby RyzER » Thu May 07, 2009 12:41 pm

yat_chum wrote:Yee Sup Yee San Sao (Twenty Two Separate Hands)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tSLsEshcASo


Thx for the Link yat_chum. Now I can compare my Pin Sun to this and discuss this with my Master.
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Postby yat_chum » Thu May 07, 2009 4:53 pm

What is your lineage? Could you tell us a bit about your training. :)
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Postby RyzER » Thu May 07, 2009 5:54 pm

yat_chum wrote:What is your lineage? Could you tell us a bit about your training. :)


Uhhm sure!

Well--it's definately San Sik(Separate Hands)!.

Uhhm--i'm not learning the normal 3 "forms" of Yip man Lineage--it's much like the video you posted in terms of very short techniques. BUT--MOST of these are TWO PARTNER excercises (NOT CHI SAO). Dr. Leung Jan broke down ALL 3 forms and turned them all to "points"--or seperate 2 man excersises[spelling]. He's a was damn genius I'll tell ya. I'm learning his True and Personal style of combat--no salesmanship needed. I am 6'th generation student.

Wong Wah Sam Taught the Fung Family--and they preserved it. It's is not taught publicly per say. We are even prohibited from posting video's (although Master Mui is warming up to the idea).

The Koo Lo (Gu Lao)villiage stuff (the vid you posted)on You Tube is a perversion and commercial version of True Dr. Leung Jan Pin Sun as told to me my Master Mui (when I PRESSED the issue on him 2 weeks ago). It contains no POWER footwork--merely waist generated power as is clearly seen. He said to me that it was "Public and Commercial". The evidence is in the footwork!

You might have run across MASTER Jim Roselando's articles over the years (another sick bastard [in Boston that's considered a compliment!]). Yo--I am telling you Jim's power is Retarded(I know him personally)! I would suggest to you to go to http://www.apricotforesthall.com/ for a better and more complete synopsis of what I'm trying in n00b words to explain to you. He is a true searcher who has traced this lineage's roots and been to China/written articles/interviewd the best there is in Pin Sun Wing Chun.

What I hate the most about him is how he undersells the true power of his technique [humility?].

We also do a lot of Qi-Gong as well. Not many Wing Chun Schools do this.

I hoped this helped

Regards,

RyzER
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Postby kung fu fighter » Thu May 14, 2009 10:27 am

RyzER wrote: The Koo Lo (Gu Lao)villiage stuff (the vid you posted)on You Tube is a perversion and commercial version of True Dr. Leung Jan Pin Sun as told to me my Master Mui (when I PRESSED the issue on him 2 weeks ago). It contains no POWER footwork--merely waist generated power as is clearly seen. He said to me that it was "Public and Commercial". The evidence is in the footwork!


By power footwork are you referring to the dong ma (swinging horse) stepping which is done using the waist in the biu choi san sik?

What's the power footwork? How is it done?
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Postby yat_chum » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:57 am

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Postby yat_chum » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:07 am

Reposting of the Gu Lao - 22 separate hands, above as the link is broken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJHBkyB9fc
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:56 am

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