taiji as a killing art

Discuss Taijiquan or other soft styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Carl Rutherford » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:51 am

Dvivid wrote:Just a few points from an outside perspective. Repeating what I've learned from Dr. Yang, not a Western view.

1. Grand Ultimate Fist, or Supreme Ultimate Fist, does not refer to taijiquan as being the "ultimate" martial art. It is correct that Taiji is the mother of yin and yang.

Agree yes & No . Taiji is the ultimate art if one is spiritualy conected to the force of life, hense its origional name to represent this, I would say that the force of life is "supreme ultimate" . The Hand or fist represents us the warrior or code of the martial artist in relation to the "supreme ultimate". Hense it is the mother of ying & yang .

Within the body: in order for the body to move from a neutral (wuji) state, into a posture which is yin or yang, the mind must first generate the intention to move. Mind = taiji = grand ultimate. Taijiquan is the fist of the mind. Consciousness is the 'grand ultimate' of the body.

Basicly correct
2. Striking an opponent in taijiquan utilizes point striking. Soft and soft/hard style Chinese martial arts use penetrating power to strike vital points, aka acupuncture cavities. This is dim mak. It is not a sales tool, it is a fundamental principle of the art. If you dont believe in acupuncture points, you're not really a taijiquan student. Go train Hapkido or Aikido which have lost a lot of depth in translation from taijiquan. or Karate.

Spot on.

Jin/Dim Mak: http://ymaa.com/articles/generating-jin

At the same time, the traditional study of martial arts is supposed to center around WuDe, martial morality, and a student should know inherently that killing is wrong, and typically the art is used in self defense, using soft power to neutralize an attack. Or better yet, heightened awareness to avoid an encounter entirely - the fight of no fight.

Again spot on.

Taijiquan is not for killing any more than any other martial art.

WuDe: http://ymaa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4905&p=23126#p23126

3. Yang was known as 'unbeatable Yang' widely in China. Not a Western idea. Teachers travelled widely and competed often in public. He was undefeated.

Thank you for your comments
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Carl Rutherford » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:53 am

Hi Josh
Josh Young wrote:It is a curious concept that all visible forms are shown only for beginners and there are secret forms that are more advanced, this is largely false and goes against both history and traditional learning methods.

I agree that not all visible forms are for beginners, but chinese masters do & did hold back information on purpose. They are firmly rooted in business.

First there are no beginner forms in the sense that one learns them first and then later learns the advanced version of the form. This is often a sign of fraud. In Chen style for example, the forms are taught one move at a time over a long period of time, this is after stance training has prepared the body for this. There are more advanced forms that can be taught in some schools, however these are not secret nor are they versions of the beginner forms, rather they are

Of course there are beginners forms, simplified methods with advanced learning within the form movement as time goes on, it's progressive learning. Every style, teacher and system has its own method, with secret moves hidden within the forms in times past.

.
There is no point in hiding anything in a form, one cannot learn the applications and skills through the imitation of posture, and taijiquan as a system cannot be learned from book and DVD alone, it requires hands on training and correction of energies. The majority of the forms that we can see today are exactly what they appear to be and are not public versions of secret methods.

I think you will find it used to be that way, & may be still is today in some places. One can learn a lot by watching and studying, but contact brings applied knowkedge and understanding. Thank God for books and DVD's they are a blessing to all who use them wisley. Agree with your last point.


Changing the frame size and internalizing the movements does not equate to doing a more advanced form or version of it. And in many systems the form is rejected in the end, it is done away with, because it is too codified to embody taijiquan, or the system of the mother of yin and yan.


Yang Luchans nickname translates to "void (of) rivals" not "unbeatable" the name was Wu Di, which seems to even be a play on the concept of martial morality as "Wu De"


"Void of rivals" could quite easily mean unbeatable, but its all irelavent anyhow. Tai chi is a great art if balanced in its approach, teaching and methods, most martil arts today are void of these methods.

Re Erle & Chang dont waste your good energy on fighting your belief, you dont believe he existed like many so be at peace with it. Many do believe he firmly existed and changed Erles path, direction and art and maybe one day you may think differently.

He passed on what he had, added to it drawing from the internal & other influences and like all of us he was not perfect or without mistakes. Just take what you like from what was given to him and add it to your own path. MMA are doing this today for all to see, but it is nothing new, chinese masters have done it also. He only gave to us that which was given to him, some find that hard to take because of changs "old yang" & Dim Mak & history that he gave to Erle, which is deadly if used correctly but it will not make you the deadliest warrior.

Having seen the yang family forms and frames and the deciples of Yang sau chung, Chu Gin soon, Mary Yang etc, & others they can all look quite different, which is right. No two boxers move the same, some may look identical other may move totally different but all may have the same teacher. Internal expression of the form is key to making it yours - Erle new this he got it from chang.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:45 am

Taijiquan as a name implies the method of the art, this is something Erle never understood and never taught.

He employed sensationalism and controversy to sell an exclusive and proprietary information product, he was brilliant, there is no question to his genius. He was the P.T.Barnum of taiji.

If you want to buy a slightly changed aikido staff form on video being sold as Bagua, then Erle is the guy for you, that was his style and it takes only a little bit of research to look into that to see it.

I question everything, everyone, every teacher and talented person i can find. I really don't care what Erle did when it comes down to it, but have no problem discussing his system or claims.

I've been doing Yang style taiji for 5 years and am fine with doing push hands with any 5 year WTBA student. I've had black eyes from push hands, bruises too. I know the WTBA single hand push hand method rather well because of training with my friend in the system. I can't say that it is any more effective of a martial art than the material i was taught, but i can say that it breaks a bunch of rules that it is clear Erle never learned. I can't blame him though, if i learned from Mr. Chu i would likely do the same thing, sadly his initial exposure to bad taiji caused him to turn away from the real stuff in favor of what he thought taiji should be.

The system spends a lot of energy claiming to be better, higher, superior etc, but of course only worthy people can see the cloth Erle has spun.

Are there any records of WTBA members (Erle included) doing any competitive fighting? Yang Luchan took on all challengers and never once hurt them or was defeated, the idea that the art that came from him is too deadly to use is just a weak excuse if Luchan himself had no problems using it without harming anyone.


As for the content regarding secret forms, it is very hard to take seriously. Form based training in taiji is not traditional, the 13 postures were learned one at a time properly, not in a beginner way or advanced way, just the right way, and then the student moved on to the next. After doing this all of the postures threaded together to make the form. Beginners did not do the form at all in the traditional way.

If one does not do research, Erles claims are easy to believe, but if one does much research they become impossible to believe. But then his target demographic has never been scholars.

Having seen the yang family forms and frames and the deciples of Yang sau chung, Chu Gin soon, Mary Yang etc, & others they can all look quite different, which is right. No two boxers move the same, some may look identical other may move totally different but all may have the same teacher. Internal expression of the form is key to making it yours - Erle new this he got it from chang.


[url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ4D_8n24Z8 [/url]

if you look at the Red Book form photos, the photos of Wei-ming and Chen Fu you will find that the postures are rather identical and the form is highly standardized. The methods of every dedicated student of Cheng-fu are pretty much identical, and they have the same oral teachings about the form, system and application.

I wanted to note that there are a lot of people who think that the best thing to do when someone disagrees with you, is to insult them, to claim they do not understand or use some other method of trying to discredit them without having to draw upon facts and knowledge, this type of conduct is common online, but it is not something indicative of sound judgement or good character.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:47 pm

Josh Young wrote:I've been doing Yang style taiji for 5 years ..

Holy dren! A dude from the US with 5 YEARS experience says he knows enough to sit in judgement of a dude who was given the title of MASTER from other MASTERS from China! And ERLE is the one with the delusions! Sorry mate. Just see the striking hilarity in it all!

Please, keep up your rants! Eventually, with enough ink, you one day may have 6 years experience! Or is it one year's experience, 6 times...
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:42 pm

I am just holding Erle to a standard of honesty and accuracy.
I never dismissed his style or skill, but have no problem pointing out his controversy and inconsistency.

You slander and insult me repeatedly, but this reflects negatively upon you, not I.

You do know that Erle started to teach taiji after only a couple of years of learning it. If you dismiss me for the brevity of my practice then your dismissal also applies to a great deal of his work. Your logic here not only insults me, it also insults Erle and yourself.

For you to dismiss me based upon how long i have been practicing shows a continuation of your inability to address facts or relevant details and criteria. Unable to mount a meaningful argument based upon factual content you simply dismiss, attack and insult without addressing a single factual detail.

Your lack of scholarship upon the topic and issue is apparent and undermines your ability to be able to contribute meaningful content here. Combined with your quickness to insult and dismiss, one may assume that you simply have nothing to contribute other than insults and dismissals of others.

this is from one of my conversations with Erle:
The "Masters" who gave me that "degree" which by the way means nothing to me, other than some small recognition from my peers, were Wang Xin-wu the then head of the China National Wusha Federation, Shao Shan-khan the then head of Wushu in Shanghai and Li something, the then head of BAguazhang Wushu for the Federation.

Why would he say that title means nothing to him?
He dismisses it as readily as you dismiss me. He and I got along fine and had a few exchanges of emails, I like him despite the issues regarding the facts and accounts. One thing i can say, is that the example of his character was clearly something you did not learn from him.

You can imagine that to question the account of someone who was given a title of master by the Chinese National Wushu Federation is heretical, but no title or degree should allow someone to go unquestioned or to not have to be held to a standard of honesty and accuracy.

you can continue with your insults now
As i said, i am more than willing to push hands with you and i am using my real name.
You may hide behind insults and a screen name, but what credibility do you have? What facts or observations have you contributed beyond insults?

All you have had so far is a testimonial, but how do you think the testimony of someone so quick to insult reflects upon your school or the WTBA? Though you may not realize it, a testimonial is not factual evidence or tantamount to a credible account of history.

here is a curious quote by Erle from his article:
Taiji, The Greatest Qigong Part 3.
Chang Yiu-chun who taught me that I
should not have a teacher

what better lesson to learn from a man who does not exist?
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:24 pm

Chen Pan Ling created the '99' form at the behest of the chinese government in the 1940s, this is the form Erle claims to have learned from Chang Yiu-chun. It did not even exist when Shao-hou was alive. The 99 form was called "old yang" by Erle.

Erle also is clearly aware of the book published by Pan-ling and refers to it as evidence that he did not invent it, which is curious because the author of that very book, in that book mentions how and why he created it. But if Erle had a copy of the book in the late 70s it was likely not in English and all he would have had to go on would have been the illustrations, so his names for the postures would be different... and they are!

This is all public record.
It takes only a little bit of research to verify.

Why insult when you can research?
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Dvivid » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:28 am

A few more points:

1. Traditional masters don't teach dim mak and vital points openly, or to most students, because they can KILL people. It has always been an oral tradition, after a master has deemed over years of training, that a student ihas good morality. This is paramount. So, Erle should not have published that information as he did. It is dangerous, and opportunistic, IMO.

Dr. Yang similarly translated a massive tome on the subject, and then decided it was wrong to publish it to the general public. This is why it is considered "secret".

2. There is a big difference between Chen and Yang Taijiquan history. Consider this quote:

Chen Xiao Wang: "Natural is the first principle. There is no secret in Tai Ji study,only the levels of understanding."

This is true in Chen style, because it is always taught the same way, with martial aspects intact.

It is not accurate to say the same of Yang style, because when Yang style was taught widely, thanks to Yang, Chengfu (楊澄甫), he emphasized the health aspects of the practice in order to benefit the most people. Traditionally, even in the early 1900s, martial art applications were only taught to close students, because it was your personal self-defense, and you didn't want to reveal your style to outsiders who may betray/attack you with knowledge of your techniques.

But, the little-known truth is that Chengfu did have "indoor disciples", which are students who have spent the time training hard, developing their art, and proving their morality and trustworthiness. They were taught the full taijiquan curriculum, including martial applications and weapons. So, in a sense, a large amount of the full taijiquan system WAS really kept secret. And, for the most part, this has lead to Yang taijiquan in the West being taught in an incomplete way, where most schools teach Yang tai chi for health only. And this is fine, as most people seek tai chi just for their health (and should really just learn qigong IMO).

Cool fact: this forum would not exist, and we would not be discussing this, if Chengfu hadn't taught Taiji widely!
http://ymaa.com/articles/ymaa-taijiquan-lineage
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:19 pm

thanks for the addition to the thread
I was taught some things that i was told were secrets that were not to be given out in general, not a whole bunch of stuff though, just a few things. One of them is a hand weapon/mudra that has not been published in any book i have seen. I was told that only after more than a decade of training was my teacher taught it and that it came from Wei-mings teaching, perhaps Cheng-fu himself taught it to Wei-ming but that is not clear to me because there is no way to research it. It may have come from Sun Lu-tang. Wei-ming taught bagua to some of his students as well as taiji.

I nearly posted some material yesterday that is highly relevant, while Erles early dim mak articles lack any mention of Chang Yiu-chun, they do mention that Erle collaborated with an acupuncturist and that a lot of his Dim-mak teachings are based on him working with these people to study the points. Very little of what he published regarding the topic was taught to him by martial artists, rather his collaboration allowed him to develop what he was taught into something he could publish.

http://www.taijiworld.com/death-touch.html
I too have collaborated with one of this country's most senior acupuncturists, Chris Madden, probably the most advanced person in this field, the one to whom all of the others come to ask how to do it.
I spoke at length to Chris Madden who was able to verify many of the so called death points as being important acupuncture points, in fact some that are 'forbidden points', never to be needled. And of course it is these points that the martial artists will be concerned. Chris prefers to call this art 'striking the acupuncture points' rather than death touch or dim mak as he feels that these names should be left to the movies.
I have known which points to strike and how to strike them but have never known why! Or more importantly how to fix up what I have done, Chris gave me some of the answers. For instance, why did the lung point mentioned earlier have to be struck in a downward motion with a loose fist or palm? Or why do many of the others have to be struck with an upward motion or a drilling motion etc. The answer is that many of these points require that energy be either 'put in ' or 'pulled out' and in performing a certain strike, one is able to do either putting or pulling....


then there is more that i like, this is from the main person he collaberated with:
So it's all an extension of Chinese medical theory, it's not any different. Anyone with sufficient acupuncture education could figure out which were the death points but then they need on top of that the martial arts training to know the correct techniques and to gain the necessary power and accuracy to use.


So while many are upset that Erle published, his publication is not the wrote teaching of some instructor that should have been kept secret, clearly a great deal of what he published was assembled by himself through working with acupuncturists.

Now this is important because there is the impression in his system that what he published was all from taijiquan, yet he clearly explains that is not the case.

My wife is a massage therapist who has been trained in meridian based massage and other modalities, in her texts there were all the points and diagrams and there were also "don'ts" as in things you do not do, places you do not massage or do not use certain pressures on, angles you do not move the arm in, because all of them are associated with injury or illness. A great many of these don'ts can be used in a martial context and isn't that what Erle explained that a lot of his Dim-mak is, an extrapolation of acupuncture theory combined with martial knowledge?

My teacher taught me that the throat is easy to get to, easy to target and crush using basic taiji moves. I was told that the quickest way to kill an opponent was to destroy his throat, and i was taught a hand weapon/mudra that was specifically for this. This mudra does not appear in publications and so i have no way to verify that it is authentic. I can't say that the most lethal thing i was taught in taiji had anything to do with meridians or Dim-mak.

Wei-ming was Cheng-fus student very early on and was with him longer than any other pupil. The teachings coming from Wei-ming are curiously distinct from those coming from people like Chen Man-ching and others who were with Cheng-fu for a short time (less than a few years)... i've always wondered about this...
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:55 pm

an interesting thing about Erle and his dim-mak, he met Dillman at a seminar in the late 80s, before this there isn't anything published by Erle about this topic, he does claim that Australasian Fighting Arts magazine contains articles where he mentions it, but these articles are MIA from his site. His work on "dim-mak" appears after he videotaped the Dillman seminar and then began working with Madden and Simpson.

here is a link to an article where Erle mentions attending the seminar, note the date
http://www.taijiworld.com/george-dillman.html
note how Chris Madden appears again in the page and Erle does not mention knowing or teaching any "dim-mak"

Erle says that he introduced "dim-mak" to the world, but Count Dante had this ad in comic books over 10 years before Erle is said to have met Chang Yiu-chun:
Count_dante_ad_1.jpg
(17.44 KiB) Not downloaded yet


Note that the mistranslation of Dim-mak as "death touch" is in the ad, Erle gives the same translation in his work...

if you read the bio of Erle at his own site it says he did not even begin to learn taiji until after 1967, and that he was not serious about it until 1974 when he met Mr Chu in London... the first mention of Dim-Mak, including the bad translation, takes place well before Erle claims to have been exposed to it by Chang Yiu-Chun.

It was Erle Montaigue who introduced Dim-Mak to the world

http://www.taijiworld.com/dillman-and-me.html

This is easily proven to be wrong by a tiny bit of research into Count Dante...
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Carl Rutherford » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:59 am

Hi Josh,
I think it would be best to keep with the thread, as I said you do not believe in Chang.

You are correct that Erle work on Dim Mak became widley published after the Dilman encounter, because although as i stated he already had knowledge of the "dim mak" he did not have ant significant knowledge and was trying to fil in the holes, his working with chris & wally were to gain extra knowledge, that what the whole dilman article is about & the reason why he released the information he gained and by them and the medical field to stop Dilam from doing it.
Josh Young wrote:
an interesting thing about Erle and his dim-mak, he met Dillman at a seminar in the late 80s, before this there isn't anything published by Erle about this topic, he does claim that Australasian Fighting Arts magazine contains articles where he mentions it, but these articles are MIA from his site. His work on "dim-mak" appears after he videotaped the Dillman seminar and then began working with Madden and Simpson.

here is a link to an article where Erle mentions attending the seminar, note the date
http://www.taijiworld.com/george-dillman.html
note how Chris Madden appears again in the page and Erle does not mention knowing or teaching any "dim-mak"

none of this is new news

Erle says that he introduced "dim-mak" to the world, but Count Dante had this ad in comic books over 10 years before Erle is said to have met Chang Yiu-chun:
Count_dante_ad_1.jpg


To be fare to Erle I think you would find that he meant he revealed it in greater detail than most were aware of. Everybody had heard of the delayed death touch etc, even bruce lees death was connected with it, it was not new, just the depth and knowledge of it had nor been released and especially within Taiji which is what we are discussing and what Erle probably meant.


Note that the mistranslation of Dim-mak as "death touch" is in the ad, Erle gives the same translation in his work...

if you read the bio of Erle at his own site it says he did not even begin to learn taiji until after 1967, and that he was not serious about it until 1974 when he met Mr Chu in London... the first mention of Dim-Mak, including the bad translation, takes place well before Erle claims to have been exposed to it by Chang Yiu-Chun.

It was Erle Montaigue who introduced Dim-Mak to the world

http://www.taijiworld.com/dillman-and-me.html

This is easily proven to be wrong by a tiny bit of research into Count Dante...


My only question is why so many get so upset as to Erle learning from him as well as others.In reality the topic is about taiji as a killing art not as and it very much has the ability to do this. Erle introduced this to "the world community" more than most in relation to Taiji with his articles and videos etc. Prior to this there was very little public knowledge of it and he only released it because of mr dilman going about everywhere hitting everyone across the neck and other places as well. Erles Taiji is good and a lot beter than most, it not about the man or the art but the principles that overide both.
I appreciate you do not want to acept his account of his llife teachings which is fine, but lets at least look at the positive he gave to the taiji community which is far more valuable than if you believe he met chang or not, otherwise we will always be debating over whose family form is the best, yang, wu , lee etc and all theses sytems are family sysytems that in reality have little to do with the art other than there personal expression.
None of us can lay claim to family heritage when we are not members of these familys other than what was told or given to us.
The gracies have no more rights than any other family clan to jujitsu, it just happens to be their personal expression of the art.
Taiii is an art based on principles, familys ,individual including Erle and anyone can lay hold of them and express them within threir own individual personality, No two taiji people should move the exactly the same,
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:52 am

Maeda taught the Gracies, he was a Juodoka... they practice Judo... real Jiu-Jitsu is largely distinct from their art... despite their claim that what they practice is Jiu-Jitsu.

My point is that historical claims and inaccuracies have a lot to do with the perception of things.

I was wrong about my friend, he is not a student, he is a level 1 instructor now. I've pushed hands with him for 3 hours this week so far. My friend in the WTBA that is. I have an appreciation for the art, but will never call it taiji, just taiji based. I would also never call it the supreme ultimate martial art,it is just about average in terms of effectiveness and it would be better if it used the real taiji energies, which it lacks. (saying this from experience with it, not merely observation)

As for family styles, the outer essence can vary but the inner can remain, if they are true then then are true. One cannot be better. But if the inner essence is not there, who cares what the outer looks like, if they are not true then they are not true. Erles art for me has the outer but none of the inner, none of his students i have seen have the skill of taiji, just an external energy version of it.

As for Chang Yiu-Chun... well who ever this was, made up or not, the form Erle claimed to have learned from him was an invention of Chen Pan-ling and others in the 1940s. It is a good form, it has Chen and Wu and Yang and some Bagua as well. Believe what you want, i will, but i will also not ignore facts like that.

i like your character Carl, reminds me of Erle.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby caesar » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:11 am

I have an appreciation for the art, but will never call it taiji, just taiji based. I would also never call it the supreme ultimate martial art,it is just about average in terms of effectiveness and it would be better if it used the real taiji energies, which it lacks. (saying this from experience with it, not merely observation)


As for Chang Yiu-Chun... well who ever this was, made up or not, the form Erle claimed to have learned from him was an invention of Chen Pan-ling and others in the 1940s. It is a good form, it has Chen and Wu and Yang and some Bagua as well. Believe what you want, i will, but i will also not ignore facts like that.


Josh, could you explain me...do you think that the original invention of Chan Pan-ling and the others is then real taijiquan or a taiji based art if we use that term? And if it is real inner taijiquan, how does the training of Erle's students differ so much, that they cannot use their art with true inner taijiquan principles?
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:24 pm

Josh, could you explain me...do you think that the original invention of Chan Pan-ling and the others is then real taijiquan or a taiji based art if we use that term?

The invention was a form, a form cannot be taijiquan, it can only be a form. It is a good form and has a lot of taiji content.

I will not call a form or the practice of a form; taijiquan. Taijiquan is the system and the application of the system and so cannot be a form anymore than it can be facial expression or a way of tying ones shoes.



And if it is real inner taijiquan, how does the training of Erle's students differ so much, that they cannot use their art with true inner taijiquan principles?

since it is only a form, it is not taiji, nor against taiji

one can take a good form and learn it very well and never realize taijiquan, though one may have a great deal of martial skill and have obtained numerous techniques from a form

form does not teach the system, one cannot learn the skills or methods from form alone, if anything form alone will take one further from the path

http://www.eastwestacupuncture.net/book_notebook.htm
Only someone who has received the teachings of a true Tai Chi master and who has achieved a certain level of gongfu themselves can distinguish this qishi. Superficial, undisciplined practitioners of Tai Chi cannot recognize it. If they did see it, they might even think it was incorrect and criticize it, saying that it was too slow, or that the stance was too wide, or that it was superstitious or deliberately mystifying. Anyone who has not researched a branch of knowledge may make incorrect comments.


I have yet to meet any member of the WTBA that has listening skill. They teach a shortcut where you become ferocious and attack first, and it works fine, but don't understand real push hands or taiji application. They do so poorly with the 13 postures that they use dozens of other forms and methods to make up for it, they can't demonstrate the 13 postures, just ferocity using the outer form of taijiquan.

If you do push hands with someone with real taiji skill and then with the WTBA you will notice a profound difference.
Look at it this way, the highest skills in Chen, Wu and Yang style all resemble one another and are very similar, but the highest skills in the WTBA are unlike anything in any other art. They use a whitecrane/wingchun stance that they call the "power stance" and use a punch that is a lot like wing-chun but not like any taiji. This punch is their primary weapon.

While most real taiji practitioners are open to push hands and challenges, even tournament fighting historically speaking (many of the Yangs and their students did this and it is considered part of Chen training to this day)but the WTBA claims that this is stupid and that their art is too dangerous to use in such events. Yet not one authentic taiji system has ever made this claim, rather many instructors insisted upon tournament fighting and challenges.

There are claims in the WTBA that also show that the 13 postures are not understood. The students are told that Master Erle went around defeating all the other masters, but not one of them has a record of this. You should hear some of the rumors and claims that they pass along, such as slow forms will kill you. :
too much Yang Qi (by doing all slow movements) then goes in to its opposite of Yin, thus causing 'Yin Dullness' which is what many of the old Chinese masters who only ever did the all slow form died of!

Those are Erles words....

Form is not system, system is not form. Taijiquan has nothing to do with the form itself and it is taught that one can apply the principals of taiji to any motion and form. Real taijiquan is internal, philosophical and most of all, something you can feel. It isn't anything like what the WTBA has to offer. The WTBA is taiji based, it is martial, even deadly, but it lacks the understanding and application of taijiquan. Even the use of the term as "supreme ultimate martial art" shows this basic failure to understand, the name applies because of the application, not because of reputation.

It is fun to work with WTBA instructors, it isn't like they are easy to face or aren't martial, they are often quite skilled. they do not tend to be well educated about taijiquan, mostly they just repeat what Erle says as if they know it for themselves, they don't even question their own master or his teachings... they just repeat them and say that their art is more advanced than all others.

more Erle:
In just the same way that Yang Cheng-fu died young of ill health, so too do those who believe that they can get by on only slow movements, the yin side! They usually beome ill from 'Yin Dullness' a disease state taken on from doing too much yin exercise or eating too much yin food etc. However, it is also said that if you change taiji in any way, then it will be to your detriment! Hence the detriment in health of many modern so-called masters! They have forgotten to include the 'hard' side of taiji! And only practice Cheng-fu's form and have left out the cannon fist forms that go with it and the good hard push hands workout in favour of the softly, softly push hands

Now it is known that Cheng-fu practiced multiple forms, including some with faster movements, so the idea that he died of "yin dullness" from slow forms is a strange claim.

Note that comment about "good hard push hands" that is another sign of not getting it. This sign is most apparent when you do WTBA style push hands. It is all external!! The only internal material they have is qi-gong! But to practice an internal style and an external style at the same time is worthless, it leads nowhere but to external skills, true skills yes, but not taiji.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:30 pm

You learned all of this in 5 years josh? wow! Good for you.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:13 am

nope, all that i learned in less than two.
;)

You can believe that it takes longer than a few years to see fraud.
to me you are telling me that 4+6 is 11 because Erle told you so.

Some basics in taiji and some push hands with WTBA is all you need to see the fraud. It is pretty simple.
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:36 pm

I think you missed alot of what Erle was about (which is very understandable). As to the quality of WTBA instructors, unfortunately, there is no consistancy. That is why Eli is implementing what he is. That you push hands with an instructor in WTBA doesnt mean that he understands the entire art (or even push hands, for that matter, which, after 6 years of work, I was corrected by Erle's senior students of things I thought were correct but weren't). There are people who trained with Erle monthly who dont understand much of what he taught. So, while Erle spent a ton of time giving people an idea of where they could go, Eli is helping people actually get there. As to the other "inconsistencies" you reference. Do you think Erle cared? People swore up and down that no pictures of Chang exist, yet, he put them in plain view (the Yang picture you posted, why would they point out a 20 year old?). Just because you can't see them doesnt mean they arent there! Erle was like that (you have no idea how much he put out for everyone to see, yet few ever saw anything). While you think he enjoyed your challenges, in reality, he probably couldnt have cared less. He wasnt looking for you or your money. He was very much "live and let live". If you didnt agree with him, hey, what did he care. He had 100+ emails from others every day. And he had a life outside of taiji.

As to the rest, I was refering to your actual experience. I guess you dont have children, but kids think they know it all. When you have been around for 25 years in the martial arts, you will look back and laugh. That you think you understand ALL of taiji in such a short time is truly amazing because what you are really saying is, your art is so deep, it takes only 5 years to learn it all! Ill just wait for the weekend course on your style to come out, or even the DVD collection! Erle did 400 DVD's on what he was getting across and it took him 30 years to get through the information (Eli has been working at it for 11 seriously, and 20+ indirectly). That means, for 5 years of complete knowledge, the art would have 10 DVD's, maybe 50 MAX! Oh wait.. that's marketing...

Look at it this way: from what you have written, you may have seen 20 or 30 of Erle's DVD's. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say 40 or 10% of what is available on his COMPLETE system. Do you seriously suggest that one is informed with 10% of the information on anything?

I honestly believe that you believe whole heartedly what you write. I just wonder what you will believe 20 years down the road (like some of us)? Regardless, that you respect our host (YMAA) says things too. I didn't join this group for ego or to prove anything to you or anyone else. I did it to help a dude with a question. That snowballed! LOL

I predict a LONG and drawn out rambling from you Josh. That is fine. I dont care anymore. You are set in your ways (imagine, at 5, to be SET in your ways...) Good luck with everything. I hope one day you make your DVD collection! Let's see how many you can get too (most dont get past 10!) LOL Oh wait.. it will be hard to initiate people via dvd... oh well. I wont hold my breath for that one!
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Carl Rutherford » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:12 am

Josh Young wrote:Maeda taught the Gracies, he was a Juodoka... they practice Judo... real Jiu-Jitsu is largely distinct from their art... despite their claim that what they practice is Jiu-Jitsu.

I think to say the gracies do not practice Ju jitsu would be quite disrespectful to their excellent work in reinstating MMA within the martial arts community. No art can hold true to the original family inventor because it was his art, and the gracie Jujitsu is jujitsu of the gracie taste.

My point is that historical claims and inaccuracies have a lot to do with the perception of things.

This is true Josh but even though each and everyone of us will lay hold of a part of the art which is core to our way, belief and path. Every master does this creating an flavour within his art. The issue does creat some problems because from the outside or inside student the teacher in incomplete or not balanced because he is biased towards a certain method, when in reality he could be jusy more focused in one arena than others. All arts bar a few are subject to this as many masters/ teachers have a preference to focus on push hands, just form, 13 posture,nei gong etc

I was wrong about my friend, he is not a student, he is a level 1 instructor now. I've pushed hands with him for 3 hours this week so far. My friend in the WTBA that is. I have an appreciation for the art, but will never call it taiji, just taiji based. I would also never call it the supreme ultimate martial art,it is just about average in terms of effectiveness and it would be better if it used the real taiji energies, which it lacks. (saying this from experience with it, not merely observation)

It can take time to develop and understand the taiji energies and especially so within the WTBA system because of the emphasis on Martial, points etc that a lot of students get the outer frame and some do not develop the internal one.It is great that you are pushing hands together, i used to push hands all weekend with my friend Peter Smith and we gained a lot from this, I them got a wife and four children and other priorities in life and now my "push hands" is not as good. life is a cycle of seasons.

As for family styles, the outer essence can vary but the inner can remain, if they are true then then are true. One cannot be better. But if the inner essence is not there, who cares what the outer looks like, if they are not true then they are not true. Erles art for me has the outer but none of the inner, none of his students i have seen have the skill of taiji, just an external energy version of it.

The inner frame is there, some have it more than others but again this comes down to understanding the internal connections within the methods, as well as the mind & the spirit and if you focus just on the martial you definatly will not gey it.

As for Chang Yiu-Chun... well who ever this was, made up or not, the form Erle claimed to have learned from him was an invention of Chen Pan-ling and others in the 1940s. It is a good form, it has Chen and Wu and Yang and some Bagua as well. Believe what you want, i will, but i will also not ignore facts like that.

The old yang given to Erle may have connections to Chen pan Ling as it is simular, but he did not get it out of a book but was given it by chang who told him it was the old yang. Which ever way it is, Erle passed on only that which was given to him in his own unique flavour.I think he though he had been given the crown jules to the Yang Family and published the forms, but in his nievity he got an awful backlash, which was part of his cross in life.

i like your character Carl, reminds me of Erle.


Thank you Josh, I appreciate that. He gave me many things which I did not appreciate because i was to young and focused to much on the martial aspects of the art. Today I still love to teach this aspect above all others, I use it as a medium to give people understandin of this "supreme art" because when done correctly it gives great balance and harmoney with the ability to realy defend oneself in a street encounter.
Erle was greatly misunderstood and still is, including his methods and the forms and by the way in which he released the information and methods. Also becuase these methods are not low stances, structure movement in the classical look that most see today does not mean that they are not based on Taiji principles.
Having pushed hands with master Hunag Shen Shyuan senior deciple, one that lived with him for 20 years, I know that "the arts" "push hands" aspects are fine (with the correct understanding). I could name classical Yang family direct deciples that also have respect for the arts and It would not be an issue in chi Sau or push hands with him/them. I do not like to mention this because it really is of no importance other than to bring balance into the discussion, their push hands is as good as ours, theirs is low, ours is high, although I can do it low also, but in truth I dont like to.
I think the real difference is in the visual look to the arts and that we are seen to not have the internal because it does not look like classical tai chi that most are familuar with, and this is true.

I am a gracie ju jitus fan and I appeciate what they have done and in the same sense this is also not classical jujitsu , I would say the same of Erles methods. Both have form & principle roots connected to origional methods making them have some historical value, but I would also say that there is the path of a master, one who takes what has been given to him and adding to it, until it become his own unique flavour by putting his own unique inprint upon it, which is no different than that Mr Yang, Wu Sun Lee from the beginning. This brings me back to my first point, self expression within a form is key to unlocking the internal.

http://www.dim-mak.co.uk

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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:13 pm

Mr, Hill
you really don't know what i know or don't know
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:55 pm

Josh Young wrote:Mr, Hill
you really don't know what i know or don't know


I never said i did. I just took it from your writing.

What I do know, is that your "research" on Erle could not have been as thorough as you claim, yet you keep insisting that it is. You arent the first person to say what you wrote.

I look forward to your DVD series depicting your complete art, Mr Young. If it is half as good as you claim your art is, then I will be the first customer. :)
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Re: taiji as a killing art

Postby Josh Young » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:43 am

my art isn't for instruction, DVDs or books
I don't do it as a career or job
it is a passion,
perhaps you can't understand.

I have not said anything here that others have not said before me.
The invitation for Push Hands stands.
Eli promoted my friend to instructor, not Erle, and it was recently.

I'll stand by what i said, my opinion is that Erles art is good, martial and external.
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