Old Wudang?

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Re: Old Wudang?

Postby Josh Young » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:28 pm

I do think Mother Art is a catchphrase used to sell form DVDs.

You are right in that don't regard hearsay as fact if there is no evidence to support it.

As for the concept of martial arts that are ancestral to others, there is no doubt that those exist. One thing to keep in mind is no culture ever sprang out of nothing, Follow the Vajra back through history and you will find a very old "mother art" that pre-dates Buddhism all together. All you need to do is look at the facts and evidences, ignore claims, forms, nationalist scholars and people trying to sell you something or arguing out of a conflict of interest because of their pride in their system, nationality or commercial interest.

It is too big a picture for those with the narrow view to be able to see. Everyone wants to claim to be the original, the real, etc. It gets to the point of absurdity where people ignore evidence and fact and regard hearsay as proven fact. People become so arrogant they think that they can know what and when in regard to martial arts just by examining modern claims and forms, worse most of them only look just enough to support their own conclusions and never test them against various evidences.

If you want to trace a very interesting influence on Chinese martial arts, as well as Thai, Malay and others, look into the period of the 1200s, in the 13th century a Temple dedicated to Shiva existed in Quanzhou China when the Indian and the Chinese had extensive trade via ocean. Very specific martial arts teachings are linked to the Shiva tradition and the temples. This has a lot to do why the traditional Wai Khru of Thailand (which relates to Muay Thai) involves the hindu pantheon including Shiva. This period of time also relates to martial arts in numerous parts of southern Asia including Silat.

Or if you want, trace Yoga back through history and it will lead you to the same "Mother art" that the Vajra will. Shiva is called lord of Yoga, Dance and Martial arts for a reason. Both the Brahmans and the Kshatriya had their own martial arts systems that related directly to their cultural obligations and spirituality. Standing Gong is extremely well known in Hindu systems and is used by numerous mythic warriors to obtain special powers. A great many of the Chinese mythological concepts are just translations of earlier Hindu concepts, much as is the case with Buddhism, which is linked to Kshatriya culture.

The evidence and historical record in terms of sites and artifacts is far more compelling than any hearsay i have ever heard.
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Re: Old Wudang?

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:17 pm

I am glad you hold so much stock in the written documents. Tracing things back, while an excellent idea, how do you know for certain what you are reading? Are you reading actual fact, OR, are you reading the interpretation of someone who wants you to believe a certain way? All history is ONLY the opinion of someone long gone, and as such, is no more reliable than any other opinion. The only reliable judge left to us from the past ISNT the words, but the physical movement, the "traditions" if you will, that remain. Today, they either hold up or they dont. In the martial arts, there are huge holes in the physical record of many arts, so all the history in all of the world cannot make up for that loss. What I mean is, your art could have the clearest lineage and, in the past, the best methods ever invented to deal with REAL situations, but if it is not relevant to todays world, the art is lost. All the written information wont change that fact.

In short, words are cheap. It is the methods that have been successfully passed down that are relevant to today that matter.

I love that we come at the martial arts from very different paths! Wonderful!
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Re: Old Wudang?

Postby Josh Young » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:39 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:I am glad you hold so much stock in the written documents. Tracing things back, while an excellent idea, how do you know for certain what you are reading?

You really can't use written accounts or histories and i am not addressing reading at all.
To trace yoga through india you have to examine art, statues, ruins etc, and while this is found in books of artifacts, antiquities and archaeology one does not need to be concerned with the accounts, only the dates, sites, artifacts themselves etc. While someone might have their own version of who what where and why, a 2000 year old statue doesn't lie. You can easily trace a great deal of martial arts history via the weapons themselves in terms of forms, sites and motif.

The history of artifacts is much less opinion than you might think, they provide a lot of interesting data.

I disagree that one can judge anything about the past based on study of movement alone, however if you include postures and then examine the artifacts there are depictions of postures that relate to the topic.

Looking at the ancient art of Sumatra, Laos, Bhurma, Thailand, Java, China, India, and Japan speaks far more than any writing. The facts of what they show, when, how etc are far more enlightening about this topic than the theories of scholars and chauffeurs alike.
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Re: Old Wudang?

Postby yeniseri » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:02 pm

Regardless of what I think or believe, this fellow has some skill in tuishou and this is how he stands above the rest. Only by the actions he exhibits and nothing else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m86QhcK5 ... re=related

If one gets the opportunity, then we should go to any source based on objective crieria of excellence!
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Re: Old Wudang?

Postby Josh Young » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:21 pm

I totally agree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM9RfGbeKTU
The name Wudang applies to a lot of things, not all of them so easy to verify.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIhHu_1Od9k
http://youtu.be/InyoltD1jIw
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Re: Old Wudang?

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:37 pm

yeniseri wrote:Regardless of what I think or believe, this fellow has some skill in tuishou and this is how he stands above the rest. Only by the actions he exhibits and nothing else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m86QhcK5 ... re=related

If one gets the opportunity, then we should go to any source based on objective crieria of excellence!

I am not sure what you mean by skill? A display of skill would be to have a person there looking to actually DO something, ANYTHING, to the actor. There is none of that here. Besides violating ALL taiji principles, maybe that is the skill?
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Re: Old Wudang?

Postby caesar » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:12 pm

How do you think he is "violating ALL taiji principles" may I ask?
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Re: Old Wudang?

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:54 pm

caesar wrote:How do you think he is "violating ALL taiji principles" may I ask?

A big one is, force against force. He moves his body in units, not as a whole. He looses his centre. He displays no internal balance. There isnt even an understanding of a yin to yang change (or yang to yin). I am not sure about your taiji, but any one of these missing means you are displaying no taiji skill. For me, using a dummy to demo is huge one. If the bloke in blue really wanted to show him up, you would have seen a very different result, imo.

Taiji is fantastic in and of itself, but getting a "play along" to demo is despicable (in a class situation it is one thing to get a point across, but for a demonstration in public). He is playing to tourists and it makes me sad for his art. He feels it is more important to be showy (the outfit, the tricks), instead of displaying real skill.

Forgive me. I tend to the more realistic displays. My senior, who is my senior for a reason, was doing a demo in the UK at a large martial arts show. He had no rehearsed material. At one point, a dude from a Krav Maga school questioned his strategy, so he asked him on stage (which never happens). Then he asked mister Krav to throw any kind of attack he wanted to get his question answered. Note: it wasnt, throw a punch. it was ANYTHING YOU WANT. After one attack mr krav had his answer and that was that. After, he told my buddy that he could not believe that there was no pre-planning. That is where I am trying to get to (I am not there yet). Many are OK to believe preplanned or dummy displays like this. People had a lot of garbage to say about Erle, but that is how he was. You had a question, do what ever you want. People questioned his realism, but not to his face.

btw, being able to deal with spontaneous attack is also a taiji principle with no preplanning on your part!

A better question would be, which principle of taiji do you think he is displaying? Looking good in silk pjs with a hat is the only one i can think of!
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Re: Old Wudang?

Postby yeniseri » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:54 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
yeniseri wrote:Regardless of what I think or believe, this fellow has some skill in tuishou and this is how he stands above the rest. Only by the actions he exhibits and nothing else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m86QhcK5 ... re=related

If one gets the opportunity, then we should go to any source based on objective crieria of excellence!

I am not sure what you mean by skill? A display of skill would be to have a person there looking to actually DO something, ANYTHING, to the actor. There is none of that here. Besides violating ALL taiji principles, maybe that is the skill?


You are highly skillful yourself in observing a reality! Your refined sense of observation knows no bounds so in that sense you are knowledgeable. That is the main difference between the competitive Western approach to such things and the 'investing in loss', yin-yang concept that has been lost.. Good eyes! Being effortless is so subtle that one cannot see it with a magnifying glass!
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Re: Old Wudang?

Postby Dvivid » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:48 am

The story of Wudang tai chi is fascinating. The form had to be "re-introduced" to Wudang in the 1980s after the cultural revolution (when the martial arts were outlawed). The form now trained at Wudang is basically identical to the old Yang-style form. And it is this same form that was trained at Wudang in ancient times, according to documents. Calling it 'Yang " tai chi is probably a misnomer, as it only became known as such when revealed to the public in the 1800s. It likely has existed in similar form since much earlier times, when many of the postures still in the form today were developed.

Zhou Xuan Yun's Wudang Taijiquan is taught with martial applications, and is very similar to the "old-style" Yang taiji taught at YMAA schools. http://ymaa.com/publishing/dvd/internal ... _taijiquan
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