Suggestion

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Suggestion

Postby pete5770 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:29 pm

I would like to encourage people posting on this forum to clarify what the Chinese word they are using means. Perhaps something like Jing(power) or whatever you think it means or want to get across to others. Just a word or two will do. It's not necessary to write a book. This would help give pretty much everyone an understanding what you're saying, especially newer people trying to figure out what's being said. As it stands now I can just see people reading "use the Fa to lead the La into Fa La La" and then saying HUH, WHAT. I say either put the English behind it or don't use it. You're using it in a sentence, so help us less educated people out, will ya? Not everyone speaks Chinese.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby Josh Young » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:59 pm

Good suggestion but quite tricky as well.

Just to define Jin/jing alone in English is tricky for example.

Doesn't YJM have a glossary here somewhere?
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Re: Suggestion

Postby pete5770 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:07 pm

Josh Young wrote:Good suggestion but quite tricky as well.

Just to define Jin/jing alone in English is tricky for example.

Doesn't YJM have a glossary here somewhere?


I'm just saying that when people use a word like Jing they most likely have a word or two in English in their minds. I would assume that most people on this forum don't speak the language and have an English word in their heads but try and use the Chinese word. i.e. I speak a bit of Spanish but don't think in Spanish. I first think of the word / idea in English then try and translate into a Spanish word or phrase.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby Josh Young » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:11 pm

I do not think in language so I understand the need for translation and explaination.

You have a good point.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby pete5770 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:12 pm

Josh Young wrote:I do not think in language so I understand the need for translation and explaination.

You have a good point.


Yes, just a word or two to let people know, at the very least, where you're heading and what you're thinking.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby Brian » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:15 pm

Josh Young wrote:Good suggestion but quite tricky as well.

Just to define Jin/jing alone in English is tricky for example.

Doesn't YJM have a glossary here somewhere?



I've tackled this before with you Josh...have a look here...the term 'jing' is referred to as 'essence'...not enrgy:

http://ymaa.com/articles/generating-jin
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Re: Suggestion

Postby pete5770 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:29 pm

Brian wrote:
Josh Young wrote:Good suggestion but quite tricky as well.
Just to define Jin/jing alone in English is tricky for example.
Doesn't YJM have a glossary here somewhere?


I've tackled this before with you Josh...have a look here...the term 'jing' is referred to as 'essence'...not enrgy:

http://ymaa.com/articles/generating-jin


I can't seem to find enrgy discussed anywhere. :wink: :wink:
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Re: Suggestion

Postby Josh Young » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:41 pm

Jin and jing have in English often been used interchangeably, though it depends on the system of romanization. It is a trivial aspect unless it relates to the use of the wrong character, but in my case with Fa jing for example I refer to energy not essence.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby Brian » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:55 pm

Josh Young wrote:Jin and jing have in English often been used interchangeably, though it depends on the system of romanization. It is a trivial aspect unless it relates to the use of the wrong character, but in my case with Fa jing for example I refer to energy not essence.


That's exactly the problem...using english to try to convey a concept from Chinese, where at the best of times translation is difficult. Dr. Yang (not me) pointed this out in his article....the term is Jin. English is a very 'loose' language...word play is easy and it is all to frequently mis-used.

Example..the word 'Herb' ...in the US you pronounce this as if it were a french word with a silent 'H', giving " 'erb' ". The word comes from Latin...(Herba) and has a PRONOUNCED/HARD 'H'

There are many more examples of the mis-use of english when applied to other languages.

But, as before, I expect we will agree to disagree.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby pete5770 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:43 pm

Brian wrote:
Josh Young wrote:Jin and jing have in English often been used interchangeably, though it depends on the system of romanization. It is a trivial aspect unless it relates to the use of the wrong character, but in my case with Fa jing for example I refer to energy not essence.


That's exactly the problem...using english to try to convey a concept from Chinese, where at the best of times translation is difficult. Dr. Yang (not me) pointed this out in his article....the term is Jin. English is a very 'loose' language...word play is easy and it is all to frequently mis-used.

Example..the word 'Herb' ...in the US you pronounce this as if it were a french word with a silent 'H', giving " 'erb' ". The word comes from Latin...(Herba) and has a PRONOUNCED/HARD 'H'

There are many more examples of the mis-use of english when applied to other languages.

But, as before, I expect we will agree to disagree.


How do you expect anyone to understand what you're saying if you speak another language and don't at least give them a hint as to what you're talking about? You can't simply walk into a house in China, stand there without moving, and ask for water in English. No, you're going to have to use either visual aids or find out what the word for water is if you expect to get your point across. You don't have to describe the physical properties of water, you just need a single word in Chinese to get through to them that you're thirsty. To be honest I doubt too many people care how Jing / JIn is spelled or who wrote a book about it. They just want a clue andif it peeks their interest then they can read about it in more detail. This is pretty much an English forum and we're not all as stupid as you seem to think. Most of us can get the main idea behind a Chinese word if you'll help us a bit. Not every Chinese word has some deep meaning which needs to be explored before people like us can be permitted into this mystical art. Sorry, got carried away. Rant over.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby pete5770 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:52 pm

:wink: Rant continues.

I would also mention that it doesn't show experienced Tai Chi people in a good light if all you do is sort of "show off" with your knowledge of the Chinese language, which I'm going to assume is very minimal in most cases. i.e. Is there anyone out there who speaks a fluent Chinese tongue?
It also seems that these words are used as if they were spoken by "The Gods" when in fact they are simply everyday words and can be found in a Chinese dictionary just like most English words. They are not, as some seem to think, words that have some direct connection to the origins of the cosmos and have meanings so deep that the uniformed are simply not prepared or have the ability to ever understand. i.e. you must read dozens and dozens of books to understand their TRUE meaning. They are simply words and if you actually know what they mean by all means tell
us mere mortals so that we may know. :roll: :roll:
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Re: Suggestion

Postby Brian » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:31 pm

pete5770 wrote::wink: Rant continues.

I would also mention that it doesn't show experienced Tai Chi people in a good light if all you do is sort of "show off" with your knowledge of the Chinese language, which I'm going to assume is very minimal in most cases. i.e. Is there anyone out there who speaks a fluent Chinese tongue?
It also seems that these words are used as if they were spoken by "The Gods" when in fact they are simply everyday words and can be found in a Chinese dictionary just like most English words. They are not, as some seem to think, words that have some direct connection to the origins of the cosmos and have meanings so deep that the uniformed are simply not prepared or have the ability to ever understand. i.e. you must read dozens and dozens of books to understand their TRUE meaning. They are simply words and if you actually know what they mean by all means tell
us mere mortals so that we may know. :roll: :roll:


On the off chance you are referring to what I wrote:

1. I speak Mandarin...I spent 5 years studying it.

2. I also speak some Japanese but not fluently.

3. The references I made to Jin/jing (apart from the link to Dr. Yang's article) were all found by Google...so no mystery there.

4. You opened this discussion by asking for explanatins of terms used....now that you are getting them, you don't want them.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby pete5770 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:23 pm

Brian wrote:
pete5770 wrote::wink: Rant continues.

I would also mention that it doesn't show experienced Tai Chi people in a good light if all you do is sort of "show off" with your knowledge of the Chinese language, which I'm going to assume is very minimal in most cases. i.e. Is there anyone out there who speaks a fluent Chinese tongue?
It also seems that these words are used as if they were spoken by "The Gods" when in fact they are simply everyday words and can be found in a Chinese dictionary just like most English words. They are not, as some seem to think, words that have some direct connection to the origins of the cosmos and have meanings so deep that the uniformed are simply not prepared or have the ability to ever understand. i.e. you must read dozens and dozens of books to understand their TRUE meaning. They are simply words and if you actually know what they mean by all means tell
us mere mortals so that we may know. :roll: :roll:


4. You opened this discussion by asking for explanatins of terms used....now that you are getting them, you don't want them.


Huh :? :?
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Re: Suggestion

Postby adamfuray » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:41 pm

I think there is a lot of wisom in this. I would be all for supporting a status quo that called for a complete absence of common Chinese words when two people are speaking in english. Isn't it redundant to say Qi, then define it as "energy"? You just said energy twice, for no real reason, then defined it with itself. Understanding Taiji concepts is simple, the execution is where the challenge lies. The "murky origins" that some people fixate on when discussing martial arts terms is "logic repellant" used in order to maintain a fantasy. I am not saying I would go around calling my martial art the "supreme/grand ultimate boxing", the definition of Taijiquan is well known. I would however stop calling a simple punch an "expression of fajin skill" lol.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby pete5770 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:39 pm

adamfuray wrote: I am not saying I would go around calling my martial art the "supreme/grand ultimate boxing", the definition of Taijiquan is well known. I would however stop calling a simple punch an "expression of fajin skill" lol.

+1
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Re: Suggestion

Postby Amaranth » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:24 am

Many chinese words are complex in meaning as are many english words, and translation has been a problem for many. I agree however - that some clarification could be useful at times. Tao not meaning a path, but the way or flow of the heavens/universe... To clarify takes awhile and then more confusion may arise, but perhaps if someone is confused or interested: after having done their best with online research such as google translator... They can politely ask for clarification and I'm sure many would be happy to do so within reason.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:50 am

adamfuray wrote:I think there is a lot of wisom in this. I would be all for supporting a status quo that called for a complete absence of common Chinese words when two people are speaking in english. Isn't it redundant to say Qi, then define it as "energy"? You just said energy twice, for no real reason, then defined it with itself. Understanding Taiji concepts is simple, the execution is where the challenge lies. The "murky origins" that some people fixate on when discussing martial arts terms is "logic repellant" used in order to maintain a fantasy. I am not saying I would go around calling my martial art the "supreme/grand ultimate boxing", the definition of Taijiquan is well known. I would however stop calling a simple punch an "expression of fajin skill" lol.


I hope you realize that your first wrong step was having pete agree with what you say! :O LOL
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Re: Suggestion

Postby adamfuray » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:05 pm

Hope being the key word.
"I know sir, that I have played out of tune, but when I learn where to place my fingers, this shall no longer happen."-Giovanni Bottesini
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Re: Suggestion

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:53 pm

I originally wrote about this because I think lots of people become spellbound, of sorts, when confronted with all the Chinese words. They(newbies especially) tend to believe that you are imparting some sort of mystical wisdom to them when in reality you're using Chinese words to explain simple stretching movements, also making them sound colorful in the process. I've seen many, many instructors using the Chinese names for things and they don't know a bit of Chinese.
Seems more like they are showing off or being a poser than actually imparting any useful info.
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Re: Suggestion

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:31 pm

pete5770 wrote:I originally wrote about this...

..because you like to be argue for the sake of arguing, nothing more!

pete, if you take a look at what Erle wrote/recorded/etc, he used the word that best fit. For example, he used the word kata for form as that was what his market used. He used very few chinese words in any of his explanations, and those he did use, he explained how HE used them (for example, Sung), and he was still misunderstood! mate, there is no "easy" way! Look at yourself pete! 40 years in taiji and you dont understand or accept fundamental concepts! FUNDAMENTAL concepts! LOL It runs deep mate.
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