Eye usage.

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Eye usage.

Postby caesar » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:41 am

Are there big differences to how the eyes should be used in different styles of taijiquan?
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby Brian » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:27 am

See here for one interpretation of eye usage in Yang style....

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/yeyes.htm

I would expect all styles to have similar attitude to how you use the eyes in taiji training. When you look at the person (for ex. when pushing) you generate more Yi (intention) than if you were for ex looking down at the floor or to the side. It is through the eyes that you express the innner intent or expression of your fighting spirit.

Try this for yourself...get someone to stand in front of you, then do a series of 'brush knee and push' in their direction BUT look down at the ground as you do it. Then repeat, this time holding your gaze directly at then (ie. in their eyes) full of intention as if you were pushing them...then ask them what they felt and how YOU looked in relation to the power expressed in the Form.
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby caesar » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:38 am

From that url...

The eyes should look forward levelly. In normal circumstances, the eyes look levelly forward, looking through the hand in front towards the front, caring for the hand, but not fixed dead on the hand.


Does the last part mean that never have your vision focused on the hand?
It's a little difficult for me to understand the "through your hand" part.
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby Brian » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:51 am

caesar wrote:From that url...

The eyes should look forward levelly. In normal circumstances, the eyes look levelly forward, looking through the hand in front towards the front, caring for the hand, but not fixed dead on the hand.


Does the last part mean that never have your vision focused on the hand?
It's a little difficult for me to understand the "through your hand" part.


Be mindfull of your hand without focusing directly on it...'looking through the hand' means having your Yi extending forward following your gaze.

NEVER follow the hands when doing Taiji (or other martial art) as focussing on the hand will distract you from the intention of your opponent. It may feel nice to follow the hand...but the whack you get from an opponent will not!!
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:03 pm

Brian wrote:NEVER follow the hands when doing Taiji (or other martial art) as focussing on the hand will distract you from the intention of your opponent. It may feel nice to follow the hand...but the whack you get from an opponent will not!!

Interesting idea... though, I dont think you understand "OTHER martial arts" well enough to comment. In bagua (not wushu circle walking, which is garbage at its best), it is very common to look or focus on the centre palm (or back of hand, depending).

As to this thread, this is VERY, VERY BASIC use of the eyes. I was hoping we would have gotten into a deeper discussion, but that doesnt appear to be possible... What do I mean? I believe the Greeks or whomever it was wrote, Eyes are the windows to the soul. This has GREAT implications in taiji, in particular. Then you have the whole aspect of reflex actions, and on and on. OH well...
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby caesar » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:08 pm

wpgtaiji...so what is your opinion on yang style eye usage then...?
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby caesar » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:10 pm

NEVER follow the hands when doing Taiji (or other martial art) as focussing on the hand will distract you from the intention of your opponent. It may feel nice to follow the hand...but the whack you get from an opponent will not!!


I actually find it even more difficult to keep good balance if I do the form by focusing the eyes on the hand...I guess I've been looking "through" the hand then...
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby Brian » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:19 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:Interesting idea... though, I dont think you understand "OTHER martial arts" well enough to comment.


How can you possibly comment like that when you know NOTHING of my knowledge of 'other' martial arts??

As to this thread, this is VERY, VERY BASIC use of the eyes. I was hoping we would have gotten into a deeper discussion, but that doesnt appear to be possible... What do I mean? I believe the Greeks or whomever it was wrote, Eyes are the windows to the soul. This has GREAT implications in taiji, in particular. Then you have the whole aspect of reflex actions, and on and on. OH well...


We can go deeper if you wish....but at the very least you should, if going to quote some saying ('eyes the window of the soul') know where it came from....

It's orgin is in the bible 58 to 68 A.D
-Matthew 6 22-23
However, it has been traced back even further. A variant was spoken by Cicero (a Roman statesman) 106-43 B.C.
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby Josh Young » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:32 pm

There is an aspect to this topic that deals with the notion that the eyes are directed by the spine, one should not, according to some teachings in Yang taijiquan; direct the eyes in a way that requires the neck to be twisted. This has the same mistake as folding where the hips and shoulders do not move together, it removes a lot of strength. It is like a soda can, emptied of soda, it can support a lot of weight if it is put directly into it, but if you twist the can a little bit it becomes weak and collapses easily, this type of structure issue can be had if the waist is used to rotate on, such as the shoulders moving without the hips, the same issue and flaw is present if the head turns independently of the hips as well.

Take the large frame version of repulse monkey for example, when the spine turns the eyes turn with it, the rear hand is seen and followed by the eyes, but only because the spine turns. If you do a compact version the spine does not turn and so the eyes do not look rearwards.

In application this turning of the eyes with the spine is quite useful, in repulse monkey for example that spine turn accommodates a type of throw.
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:18 pm

Brian wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:Interesting idea... though, I dont think you understand "OTHER martial arts" well enough to comment.


How can you possibly comment like that when you know NOTHING of my knowledge of 'other' martial arts??

...We can go deeper if you wish....but at the very least you should, if going to quote some saying ('eyes the window of the soul') know where it came from....

It's orgin is in the bible 58 to 68 A.D
-Matthew 6 22-23
However, it has been traced back even further. A variant was spoken by Cicero (a Roman statesman) 106-43 B.C.

Why should i care about where it came from? Did I make it up? No! You knew what I was refering too! Having to quote passage and verse is ONLY helpful where people have no idea from which you are speaking. Read about Henry Ford, I love his ideas on useless knowledge.

To your knowledge, mate, it is pure ego to speak on ALL MARTIAL ARTS! I just pointed out that, maybe, your one statement was false. It only indicates that you know nothing about ALL styles of bagua, though you may know something about some styles of bagua. Generalities are VERY bad things, in general.

ceasar, I am sorry. Since I do not know all the science quotes and all the references by heart ( I just know the fruit, i dont store it), I have no interest in debating with Brian, or should I say, "quote man". I just dont have the 10 hours it would take to get it all together for you.
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby Brian » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:24 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:To your knowledge, mate, it is pure ego to speak on ALL MARTIAL ARTS! I just pointed out that, maybe, your one statement was false. It only indicates that you know nothing about ALL styles of bagua, though you may know something about some styles of bagua. Generalities are VERY bad things, in general.


Look back...open your eyes MATE...I said 'Other' martial arts. As for bagua...do share your deep and insightfull knowledge....we so want to hear it!!

ceasar, I am sorry. Since I do not know all the science quotes and all the references by heart ( I just know the fruit, i dont store it), I have no interest in debating with Brian, or should I say, "quote man". I just dont have the 10 hours it would take to get it all together for you.


'Twas indeed you who quoted first, mate!!
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:51 pm

Brian wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:To your knowledge, mate, it is pure ego to speak on ALL MARTIAL ARTS! I just pointed out that, maybe, your one statement was false. It only indicates that you know nothing about ALL styles of bagua, though you may know something about some styles of bagua. Generalities are VERY bad things, in general.


Look back...open your eyes MATE...I said 'Other' martial arts. As for bagua...do share your deep and insightfull knowledge....we so want to hear it!!

ceasar, I am sorry. Since I do not know all the science quotes and all the references by heart ( I just know the fruit, i dont store it), I have no interest in debating with Brian, or should I say, "quote man". I just dont have the 10 hours it would take to get it all together for you.


'Twas indeed you who quoted first, mate!!

See cesar. Not worth the trouble. "quote man" simply cannot resist himself. I have no use for this. Good luck with the eyes... oh wait.. nm.
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:02 am

caesar wrote:
NEVER follow the hands when doing Taiji (or other martial art) as focussing on the hand will distract you from the intention of your opponent. It may feel nice to follow the hand...but the whack you get from an opponent will not!!


I actually find it even more difficult to keep good balance if I do the form by focusing the eyes on the hand...I guess I've been looking "through" the hand then...


Following on from this...see this comment from an article on Chen Taiji....

"During practice the eyes follow horizontally the excursion of the moving hand. Tai Chi Chuan emphasizes the coordination of the eyes, the hands, the body, and the footwork. A sharp vision provides enormous advantage. 18th generation Grandmaster Chen Zhukui emphasized special attention to the eye movement when teaching trick fighting. It gives the impression that the punch may come in the same direction as that of the eye movement, but it may also emerge from the opposite side. This causes confusion to the opponent. The practitioner will then be able move swiftly ahead to deliver the knockout strike"

So, everyone's interpretation is different. My own comment is from experience gained in a long fighting career, however, just like 'dodging and feinting' in boxing, you can use the eyes to your advantage...'tricking' them (as it says above).
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:25 am

Brian wrote:It's orgin is in the bible 58 to 68 A.D
-Matthew 6 22-23
However, it has been traced back even further. A variant was spoken by Cicero (a Roman statesman) 106-43 B.C.

serves me right for not checking in the first place...
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Gospel According to Matthew (Greek: κατὰ Ματθαῖον εὐαγγέλιον, kata Matthaion euangelion, τὸ εὐαγγέλιον κατὰ Ματθαῖον, to euangelion kata Matthaion) (Gospel of Matthew or simply Matthew) is one of the four canonical gospels, one of the three synoptic gospels, and the first book of the New Testament. It tells of the life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. The version in use today was written in Koine Greek.

Who knew the bible was written in GREEK.

As to the chen trick.. mate, that is the best joke I have ever heard! If it wasnt for your bullish tendencies, I would find you amusing (i have no other explaination for your above responses to my arrogant tone! ;) ) FIrst, CHEN's and FIGHTING! THEN Eye tricks! And in the same post! MATE! STOP IT!

Thank god for your long fighting career, because otherwise, I would have thought you were serious!
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby adamfuray » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:43 am

eyes on the horizon, in the direction you are facing. Intention on the dan tien. This was told to me by Chen Qingzhou. Also, Chen Zhoukui is Chen Fake's son. This should be taken in to consideration when judging the merit of anything he says. He also taught Chen XiaoWang, Chen Zheng Lei, Wang Xi An, and Zhu Tian Cai. If those aren't serious credentials, then I would beg the question: do credentials exist?
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:25 am

And here's yet another take on the use of the eyes...

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/HeadAndEyes.html
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Re: Eye usage.

Postby adamfuray » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:36 am

the article on "tucking the tailbone" just blew my mind. so good....
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