Small Circulation

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Small Circulation

Postby JeffK » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:10 am

Has anyone on this forum actually achieved small circulation?
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:44 am

JeffK wrote:Has anyone on this forum actually achieved small circulation?


Before I answer, this is my most hated part of Dr Yang's work: he uses so much detail that it makes these practises cerebral!

Mate, if you havent achieved small circulation, you would be dead! The qi is already flowing there!

What you have to understand is, the VISUALIZATION of the qi flowing up the back and down the front channels is ONLY for the beginners to give the conscious mind something to do, other than just be. IT is a device to train the monkey to do just one thing.

Once one has a fairly solid grasp that the qi flows UP the back and down the front (on inhale/ exhale) then you are supposed to FORGET that method! Thinking blocks qi flow. Mantak chia's methods are even worse because he gives actual POINTS to stop at! MY GOD! Here one is, with a qi flow in the small circulation and they STOP that flow! WoW!

Also, reverse breathing should be waited on. It is a very difficult practice and will cause tension if done too early. I know, reading Yang's books, it suggests it is not, but tension will also hinder your qigong progress.

The very best thing you can do for qigong is to get a teacher to put you in the correct body alignment. This will be a problem because not many people know the correct positions for the body. Once you get into the right posture, qigong just happens.

My suggestion to you is, if you are still above ground and you are breathing, continue to do that. Get a correct posture and have fun.
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby joeblast » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:31 am

"Achieved?" We can all work on upgrading the bandwith, but I think "fully open" is more profound than many people understand.

Small Circulation extends forth from embryonic breathing - lower dantien breathing. But here, before small circulation, Dr Yang explained the "small small circulation" in his SC book - its so good I think it should have been included with the embryonic breathing material just to give the practitioner a head start on it.

here's an adaptation I came up with using a 3 dantiens focus: first 3 lines inhale, second 3 exhale

yin at the root cv1
Image

gv1 (this breath repeated over and over is lower dantien breathing)
Image

to mingmen gv4
Image

use the yi to lead along the common link, from mingmen through to cv7, the meeting point of conception penetrating vessels, kidney channel (k15 adjacent to cv7)
Image

then return to
Image

this makes a happy mingmen :lol: the hexagrams are dantiens, not the points...place awareness on the point, yinyang the dantiens. the middle dantien = the celiac plexus, generally speaking. this one is simple and easy, not as daunting as making the entire loops :lol:

so it winds up looking like this:


Image
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby Dvivid » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:08 am

Yes. Joe is closest to the truth. It is an ongoing process. I have personally made progress and can feel that there is a lot more to go. I do think the word "achieved" is appropriate.

wpg makes a good point: small circulation is 'open' for everyone alive, and eventually it will happen naturally for you, and you can just sit there. But wpg, you won't win any friends by implying that you know more than the two most widely-acclaimed teachers of qigong on Earth. Both Dr. Yang and Master Chia teach this qigong in excellent ways. They are rare open teachers who have for the first time given clear and detailed instructions, which you might want to revisit.

First:
Once you get into the right posture, qigong just happens.


This is misleading. Eventually, once you have done the necessary work, this is true. But not before.

Qi gong means "energy practice" or 'skill". Gong is short for Gong Fu, which translates to "effort and time". The purpose of practicing small circulation qigong is to widen the flow of energy through the Conception and Governing vessels. In that process, you also open three areas in the back that have a very narrow channel in most people. This requires practice (time and effort). If you don't practice qigong, then as you age, these narrow places can almost close entirely. These are the three "tricky gates". Your energy will be low, and your health will fade. Many people later in life are sedentary, and this results in poor circulation through the small circ. The bones on the lower spine can even fuse together in some folks. If you have a moving practice, and you have widened the small circ, this wont happen.

Qigong IS a cerebral practice, especially at first. It is not Zen, where you just sit there and allow your cultivation to happen. If you don't understand qigong theory, your practice will be in vain. You can practice for a lifetime incorrectly and gain limited benefit, or you can practice with understanding of the theory and progress quickly.

The YI leads the Qi. Your intention leads your energy. So, yes, you need healthy posture and alignment, but you also need to lead the qi with the mind. Energy follows consciousness. Once the small circ is open, it can continue to develop. After a lot of progress, with diligent effort in this area, the changes that you affect will become long-lasting. THEN, you can just sit there as wpg suggests.

Points. Visualizing certain points along the way is a master's trick to get you to make progress safely, while avoiding the three tricky gates. Because if you think about those places, you lead more qi to them, and the problem gets worse. The trick with using specific points is that a student learns to focus on a safe acupuncture point along the small circ, beyond the tricky gate, so he/she safely opens the area "below" with no risk of trouble. Once you have opened the small circulation, you will understand and feel this, and then, yes, you can forget all the theory. The theory is like a ladder. Once you have climbed up to where you need to be, you no longer need the ladder.

In some traditions, Zen, kundalini yoga, etc. people achieve opening the small circ through other means. Whatever works for you.
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:26 pm

mate, first, please quote the ENTIRE message, not just the end. I wrote to FIND A GOOD TEACHER to instruct on correct posture, then what you quoted. Thanks.

I honestly dont care how many degrees in unrelated subjects a dude has, it doesnt make him perfect. No one is perfect!

If you were listening instead of defending, you would have heard an opportunity for YMAA. You would have heard: "hey wait. these are people that are using our products (in wpg's case, looked at significant amounts of our products) and they dont have the right ideas! We need to correct this".. it is ego that thinks they can control the uncontrollable! Like the fish thinking they can control the water with their thoughts! Small circulation is a TOOL and nothing more. It is a basic tool that should be put away when the subconscious mind has it. That you argue this tells me a lot.
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby joeblast » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:14 pm

wpg - its okay to point out areas that should be cautioned, but you basically began to derail this thread in your first post. There is no need to take offense at anything here, we are all adults, and as practitioners we can all set aside our egos, speak plainly to one another, whether it be positive or negative.

Your first comment echoed my older brother's sentiment when I gave him the Root book - "I feel like this is a semester's worth of learning in a college course, just about!" Perhaps, but the idea is to be logical, scientific, and honest - there must be a format chosen for the material since it is an adaptation from the traditional learning in person. Yes, its cerebral in that one must ponder these concepts a great deal and immerse oneself in the practice of them in order to truly understand these things at a deep experiential level - and yes, that's far more than a semester or two's worth of learning, experiencing.

If just addressing one point, I often quote just what I am addressing, just like what D did. It makes it easier for the reader that doesnt specifically know what I am intending to address. Simpler, clearer, I'm a proponent of the technique ;)

If you want to find a good teacher to instruct on correct posture, why are you asking about it on a thread for small circ? Why not make a thread for that purpose?

I have plenty of YMAA material also, and I think every bit of material I've come across has been well written and edited, coherent, good outlines with good progression of depth of concepts. I learn a bunch every time I pick one up - just the other day I picked up the YMAA Massage book and there is excellent commentary on the channels and vessels in it. I have no idea where you're getting "they dont have the right ideas" - it makes me wonder what you think are the right ideas?

Of course SC is a tool, but your argument that "it should be put away when the subconscious mind has it" only tells me you have made no progress with it. Pot should listen instead of worrying whether or not the kettle has listened.
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:17 pm

It is my mistake. This is a YMAA forum, and regardless of what a person's real question is, or what their concern is, a YMAA answer is the only one acceptable. Got it.

Mate, i dont play "mind tricks". I look for methods that actually work and do things, not ones that easily fool someone into believing they are doing something. It is a FACT that small circulation is BASIC to qigong practise. That here, it is some treasured culminating point of achievement is bizarre.

I think the 2 of you and I are using different understanding of cerebral... if that is possible. Let me tell you EXACTLY what I am refering too: ANY method that involves more time reading books or listening to lectures than doing it or can be corrected by a competant teacher in a few minutes is NOT qigong! Thought blocks qi flow. If you fill up your mind with all that nonsense FIRST, you will delay progress...

See, Dr Yang is a THINKER! An engineer! He HAS to believe that this is the world, as that is how he lives. That is not the way that others live. I have been accused in my circles of being a thinker (and yes, I have read and understood almost all of what dr yang has put out), but that in no way, enters my qigong. It is so I can teach others and have answers if it comes up. BUt hte best methods i have ever come across are simple and involve no mind. Simple, not EASY, there is a world of difference.

From what I have found from YMAA, cerebral means litereally, in the mind, no? You are visualizing the qi flow. You think on the points, etc. This is totally incorrect. It will cause heat and feeling, but the wrong kind of things!

it is my mistake to try to entertain an outside view in this environment. No worries. Good luck with everything.
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby joeblast » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:33 am

This is one reason why it is generally said to not have expectations of things when one practices - if you dwell too much on it, it can affect your experience. Regardless of what the question is, we generally try to stay on topic - and why wouldnt a YMAA forum generally reflect the way Dr Yang teaches? Not that dissent isnt allowed, but all concepts are considered that are logical, forthright, productive. So as I said before, please speak openly and honestly, but there is no need to craft sentences that have an underlying snarkiness to them.

Who here said SC was some culminating achievement? What are the first things one encounters on his way to mastering these things? Basic things, mastery of fundamentals. Thus they are debated heavily. Another misunderstanding - just because the way this material is presented pretty much necessitates that you spend a lot of time pondering, reading...it in no way shape or form indicates that one would wind up spending more time reading than actually practicing - that's why I bolded "immerse onself in the practice" because I wanted to stress that you really only achieve deep understanding by doing, not contemplating. But you have to realize that much contemplation will also accelerate your practice, no?

Mind, no mind, there is a time and a place for everything. You're not pondering things while you're practicing, and leading qi, though "active," is not the same thing as pondering. You're not "entertaining some outside view" - you are taking a portion of the view and saying that's the totality of views here when that is most certainly not the case.

Sure, one can empty and call it good, and one might even make considerable achievement only via that method - but not all methods and formulae work as efficaciously for all people, different approaches will yield different mixes of results - like the wind blowing making a plant stand more heartily, that which might seem from one angle to be a detriment can from another angle produce substantial benefit.

If you think small circulation is but playing mind tricks, then you havent put enough work in on it for it to have surprised you with something totally unexpected. What do you think the purpose of SC is?
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby Josh Young » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:59 am

Yi directs qi, using the mind is vital to being able to understand and employ qigong at all.

If one did not "think" or use their mind to direct qi then they would not be doing qigong.
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby yeniseri » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:50 pm

JeffK wrote:Has anyone on this forum actually achieved small circulation?


What exactly is the purpose of 'small circulation'?
Some questions:
a. Does one really become one with the Dao?
b. Does one live longer with this small circulation?
c. Does one become better through thought, word and deed with small circulation?
d. Does one really see truth (as it is) with small circulation?

Personally, when the wheel starts to spin (falun-not the present fiasco), great responsibilty is to be carried with it but I suspect, it becomes a trophy to pass around to be lauded by others.
my narrow opinion!
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby Josh Young » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:49 pm

yeniseri wrote:What exactly is the purpose of 'small circulation'?

I assume it is a mental exercise dealing with influence of the body on the mind, thus potentially yielding results in terms of awareness.


a. Does one really become one with the Dao?

We are conceivably all one with Dao in a way, but often unaware of it. Increasing awareness has the potential to allow greater realization of Dao in terms of informed action or inaction, though individual results may vary.

b. Does one live longer with this small circulation?

I would love to have data on this, it is a good question. I have no clue if it does or does not allow longevity in and of itself, but perhaps in some individuals the increased awareness results in fewer choices that endanger self and thus the capacity for increased life might arise due to the self imposed limiting of risk entailing behavior.

c. Does one become better through thought, word and deed with small circulation?

Perhaps the awareness may lead to reflection and insight, so in some people it could certainly help them refine their character, but in others it may not. Some may even take such an awareness and feed their ego with it and may end up being less than exemplary in terms of thought word and deed. However any potential for increased insight has at least some capacity to facilitate revision of character in a positive light.

d. Does one really see truth (as it is) with small circulation?

I would assume no, that this is not at all related.

This has been my narrow opinion at least.
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby pete5770 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:59 pm

Wow, the urge to jump in here and ask "....but what if it doesn't exist at all?" just became too much for me. Sorry guys. Just yanking chains again and throwing my sarcasm around. :oops: :oops:
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby Josh Young » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:13 pm

pete5770 wrote: what if it doesn't exist at all?"


I think this is a valid question worth asking.
I would chime in that if it does not exist the exercise of the imagination and attention on the body still yield results and can't hurt a person for practicing them.

Meridian pathways are remarkably similar to fate maps in developmental biology though... it might be foolish to dismiss them.
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:23 pm

I have no words for this insanity... It makes me sad for students of qigong and glad that I do not have only this small, limited, basic level material to rely on.
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby joeblast » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:57 am

and people wonder why there arent good discussions on topics like this. you spend more time worrying about "whether something is real" or "is this the bestest most highest form evah" :roll:
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby pete5770 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:16 am

joeblast wrote:and people wonder why there arent good discussions on topics like this. you spend more time worrying about "whether something is real" ........


I don't see any problem with someone questioning the validity of something. If I don't believe something or don't think something exists then the practicioners of it should be able to demonstrate it to me. What's the problem in that?
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby Dvivid » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:54 am

People who attack others on this forum will be banned. Let's discuss the subject at hand and not each other. Though some of us may be arrogant enough to assert that they have supreme knowledge over such 'foolish basic qigong', for the sake of the many beginners who are reading now and will read this forum in the future, it is important to simply discuss the topic with as much detail and clarity as possible.

(wpg, you have repeated your point again, and insulted everyone else in the process. I see a trend.) The information I offered on this topic was not a personal attack. I am trying to answer the question for the benefit of those who do not understand or practice Small Circulation. There is more to this subject than you are asserting, rather unpleasantly.

Small circ like most training in qigong gets deeper over time. At first it is necessary to use the mind, thinking about the concept at hand, and leading the qi. We do all know and agree, if you think about the points, or the qi, then you stagnate the qi, and that is wrong. But, beginners need to go through this process. Over time, the practice transitions to being about feeling, rather than thinking. So, again, I agree with that point. But it doesn't end there. As you continue to practice, the body will continue to be transformed.

Is it real? Let get this over with once and for all. p.s. - If you don't believe in qi, qigong, or meridians, you may want to find a different forum to troll.

Qi is energy. That much we can agree on. The body has living energy, obviously. Call it what you like. Now, look on an acupuncture chart, and then look on a Western medical anatomy chart. You will see that the vessels (governing, conception, belt vessel, etc) are located in the area of the thickest intersections of various tissues, primarily, tendons and fascia.

Different tissues (muscles, tendons, bones, marrow) have different bioelectric properties. These areas of the physical body where the vessels are located have layers of good conductors, sandwiched with poor conductors. This structure can act as a battery to store energy, and route its flow. It is real.

Where there is resistance, such as a less conductive layer of tissue, the energy is forced to pool (as in the acupuncture points) or to flow along with the path of the tissue (as in the ren and du mai).

I want to end with this thought: the GONG in qigong doesn't end. if you think you have mastered any part of your qigong practice, and you're done, you don't understand the concept of gong fu. The more time you put in, especially on the fundamentals, the more achievement you will experience.

I hope this is helpful.
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby pete5770 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:17 am

Dvivid wrote:to.

Is it real? Let get this over with once and for all. p.s. - If you don't believe in qi, qigong, or meridians, you may want to find a different forum to troll.


I've been on the Qigong portion of this forum and it's full of people who want to know how to cure everything from A to Z with Qigong. Yet when ONE person (myself) questions whether it's real or not, it's as if the world came to an end and you want me out of here. All I can say is that if Qigong is on such a slippery slope that ONE person could bring it down by simply saying he doesn't believe it, then there isn't much hope for it in the bigger scheme of things. I believe that the circulatory system exists because when I get cut I bleed. The nervous system exists because when poke myself with a needle it hurts. All I have ever asked was for someone to show me something along these lines for this Qigong thing. With all it's claimed healing power there ought to be some evidence of it's existance, something tangible, something you can see, touch, feel. Something that can be demonstrated to the nonbeliever. After 3000 or 4000 years there ought to be more to it than inuendo and 50 different people explaining it 50 different ways.
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Re: Small t

Postby josemunoz63 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:50 am

Dear all;

Qi, can be felt, but we need to be exercised, to be trained. We need to be relaxed, to be calmed, and Qi can be felt. Mind is able to direct the Qi. As TCM student and Qigong practitioner, the only I can say is that Qi can be experienced. And despite all the techniques and suggestions, the way each one feels the Qi is a particular and private way.

For me the key point is the intensity of Qi feeling, the flow of Qi.

Small Circulation is a tremendous opportunity for the mind and body to put in circulation a really big amount of Qi. In small circulation the amount of Qi is really high level. Small circulation puts so much energy on Du and Ren Mai that later all the vessels and meridians are really charged and carry health to all the body. Small circulation is a powerful weapon against cancers, aging and most of deceases.

Accupunture is real and works. Qigong techniques have some common basis with acupuncture, but the difference is that the mind is there operating strongly on the Qi flow.

Best Regards
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Re: Small Circulation

Postby Dvivid » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:05 am

there ought to be some evidence of it's existance, something tangible, something you can see, touch, feel.
Pete, I feel qi. When I touch something, my nerves function because of qi. When I look at things, I see because of qi, and everything I look at is comprised of various forms of energy.

Proof of the internal aspects of qigong? Practice qigong, and you will understand through your own experience of improving your health. I have repeatedly explained my own personal experience of becoming much healthier and that of my qigong students. If you don't want to practice qigong, of course you don't need to! But please discuss other topics you understand more clearly or have more affinity for.

I am not singling you out. Questions are welcome. Negative intentions are not. the world does not come to an end when you question, or offer a differing opinion. This is a qigong forum. If you want to prove qi and qigong don't exist, please try. But interrupting a conversation on a specific topic to assert your anti-qi agenda in a qigong forum is a bit rude. Ignoring my detailed reply to you entirely is just weird.

The nerves are electric fiber. We agree they exist. But what is the energy within them that allows them to function? Without qi, they are useless. The blood flows through the body to transport nutrition and what? Energy.

I also just explained the physiological structure of the energetic system above in as clear language as I could muster for the 12th time this week.

I think you prefer to argue rather than discuss this topic intelligently. No amount of your questioning will alter the reality of this subject. We don't care if you don't believe, it is your choice. I do wish you could become more positive and healthy by practicing, but you do not want to yet. For some people, it can take a healing crisis for them to take this subject more seriously.

One person's questions do not "bring down" qigong. I am merely respecting you by replying and trying to clarify this topic for the benefit of readers looking for answers, not more questions. Vague, accusatory and somewhat aggressive posts are not helpful.
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