Tai Chi & Qigong

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Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby pete5770 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:20 am

Is Tai Chi(say Yang long form) a form of Qigong?
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby brer_momonga » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:53 am

Sweet mother of Yin and Yang, pete!
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:24 am

Seriously mate. Buy one of Dr Yang's books on taiji and open the cover. Buy Bruce Frantzis' book "Power of internal arts" and just open to the contents! Look at Erle Montaigue's website. He was one of the most "skeptical" people around, yet his site is full of qi and self defence.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby pete5770 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:24 am

Just making a point. IF Tai Chi is a form of Qigong then I've been doing Qigong for 40 years. Yet after all those years and all those people who claim to have "felt the chi move in me(after 2 or 3 lessons)" and all the instructors with their "I know Qigong and it's powers and I can teach it to you", most of whom I doubt even have a clue but want to be known as a person who has powers that the average person doesn't. This is the Qigong that I know, or at the very least a goodly portion of it. Sorry if that offends people but I am telling the truth as it pretains to me, and that's the way it is with most people. The truth is what each of us believes it is, but it may not be reality.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:58 am

"Hey mate, the water is really wet?" "What water? There is no water!" "um, we are fish mate. The water is all around us!" "You are a liar! I don't believe in water!"

Let me be perfectly clear, after 40 years, you are NOT doing tai chi. Not even in the neighborhood. Tai chi is a movement of ENERGY or QI (in chinese). It is NOT physical postures. Being human, we are very physical creatures. In the beginning, we must be taught physical stuff in order to understand a greater concept (that we are spirit and energy). One CANNOT do useful tai chi by ignoring qi. The postures are a physical expression of the energy (which isnt quite correct, but is useful for a new person like you pete). The reason the form is done slow IN THE BEGINNING is because it is impossible to teach someone to move with energy flow when they are disconnected from the energy in the first place. Gradually, over time (certainly much less than 40 years with a good form of taiji), the qi flow and your movement become closer, so that, as a thought comes to mind, the body forms that thought (basic xingyi concept).

Just understand that you have been lied to, that what you know is dancing, not tai chi and move on with your life. We are tired of your ignorance. You have no desire to understand, you are just attempting to make yourself less wrong. Mate, you have no idea. Move on with your life. Give up your slow movement. Take karate or something. You will be much happier. Clearly, tai chi and the talk of qi is NOT your cup of tea. It isnt for everyone.

And please stop lying to people, saying you have done 40 years of tai chi. You have waved your hands in the air slowly. That is NOT tai chi. That you cannot see this says so much.

btw, people who say they feel qi after 3 lessons are full of it as well (for the most part). that does not mean that the art is not good. It means you are taking the word of totally new people! We dont listen to grade 1 students after their first week when it comes to science or math, so why would you even consider the statements of a brand new person as relevant? You hold up these fictitious "people" like it means something. I am tired of your ignorance.

Good luck with your tap or jazz or ballet, or whatever it is you do.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby pete5770 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:45 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:

Let me be perfectly clear, after 40 years, you are NOT doing tai chi. Not even in the neighborhood.

Just understand that you have been lied to, that what you know is dancing, not tai chi and move on with your life.

btw, people who say they feel qi after 3 lessons are full of it as well (for the most part).


I almost take offence at your comparing my Tai Chi To dancing. Nothing and I mean nothing frustrates me more than watching people do Tai Chi and adding all the "extended" movements, finger "flourishes" and dance like ideas that I consider not even close. It would seem that a lot of people (women especially) think Tai Chi is dance and have asked me if I could recommend music to do the form by. I believe most of these people aren't interested in Tai Chi as opposed to doing something pretty and or something different that they can tell their friends about. As for myself I have been somewhat obcessed with footwork and rotational movement for the last 20 years or so after reading The Tao of Tai Chi Chuan by Jou, Tsung Hwa( the white book). As I understand it this book is highly thought of in the Tai Chi world. I any case the ideas put forth in this book have led me to believe that the practice of "short form" is way off base as far as Tai Chi is concerned. It caused me to re-evaluate what I did with my arms and hands and to think less of them and more of stance and rotation of the body. In other words, I quit the "fancy dancy" stuff and thought about function more, a lot more. I like to think that my footwork is excellent and that my rotational abilities are better than most. I feel this is the key to Tai Chi. A constant study of where your feet are and how your body rotates(along with weight shifts). My hands have become almost secondary to everything else. Hope that explains why saying I'm dancing or pretty tends to *iss me off. You've found my weakness. :wink: :wink:
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby John the Monkey mind » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:38 pm

I think what you are missing is the internal feel. When doing the rotation or exansion you can feel as though your body is full of some dense liquid under presser and that straitening out is the only way the presser can escape.

This leads to a full body connection wile staying soft and relaxed. Coordination of the breathing can also engage the three diaphragms into this adding to the pressure as the spine is pulled striate from the pelvic floor up. This really improves power but is hard to get right in motion. Traditional training leads to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU

This is not fake I have experiences of the same first hand from a Xing Yi instructor.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby pete5770 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:07 pm

John the Monkey mind wrote:I think what you are missing is the internal feel. When doing the rotation or exansion you can feel as though your body is full of some dense liquid under presser and that straitening out is the only way the presser can escape.

This leads to a full body connection wile staying soft and relaxed. Coordination of the breathing can also engage the three diaphragms into this adding to the pressure as the spine is pulled striate from the pelvic floor up. This really improves power but is hard to get right in motion. Traditional training leads to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU

This is not fake I have experiences of the same first hand from a Xing Yi instructor.


I'm not doubting that it's real. I have had the same thing done to me(more or less). The difference between you and I is that I chalk it up to simple Physics and an excellent mastery
of sensivtivity, to his opponent, and timing on the pushers part.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby John the Monkey mind » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:18 pm

pete5770 wrote:
John the Monkey mind wrote:I think what you are missing is the internal feel. When doing the rotation or exansion you can feel as though your body is full of some dense liquid under presser and that straitening out is the only way the presser can escape.

This leads to a full body connection wile staying soft and relaxed. Coordination of the breathing can also engage the three diaphragms into this adding to the pressure as the spine is pulled striate from the pelvic floor up. This really improves power but is hard to get right in motion. Traditional training leads to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU

This is not fake I have experiences of the same first hand from a Xing Yi instructor.


I'm not doubting that it's real. I have had the same thing done to me(more or less). The difference between you and I is that I chalk it up to simple Physics and an excellent mastery
of sensivtivity, to his opponent, and timing on the pushers part.


Your missing the point, its traditional internal practices that let you develop this ability. Physics it may be but you still need to do the training to get there you cant just get there through doing a bit of pushing hands and running through the movements of the form. You also need the internal body movement within the still posture and that is only achieved by internal practice and breathing.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby pete5770 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:43 pm

John the Monkey mind wrote:
pete5770 wrote:
John the Monkey mind wrote:I think what you are missing is the internal feel. When doing the rotation or exansion you can feel as though your body is full of some dense liquid under presser and that straitening out is the only way the presser can escape.

This leads to a full body connection wile staying soft and relaxed. Coordination of the breathing can also engage the three diaphragms into this adding to the pressure as the spine is pulled striate from the pelvic floor up. This really improves power but is hard to get right in motion. Traditional training leads to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU

This is not fake I have experiences of the same first hand from a Xing Yi instructor.


I'm not doubting that it's real. I have had the same thing done to me(more or less). The difference between you and I is that I chalk it up to simple Physics and an excellent mastery
of sensivtivity, to his opponent, and timing on the pushers part.


Your missing the point, its traditional internal practices that let you develop this ability. Physics it may be but you still need to do the training to get there you cant just get there through doing a bit of pushing hands and running through the movements of the form. You also need the internal body movement within the still posture and that is only achieved by internal practice and breathing.


I'll go along with you on your statement that "Physics it may be.... do the training...". Push hands is how you develop this "sense". To me it's still just a boatload of training, Physics, technique, and learning sensitivity to opponents. I have never made more of it than that. Call me a failure if you will but I don't feel that way. To me, my Tai Chi is progressing along just fine and any improvement that comes along will be the result of more training and better sensitivity.
You may call it Chi if you wish. I call it practice.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby John the Monkey mind » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:07 pm

Its not just sensitivity though its power and the power is not from push hands.

Push hands lets you apply the power with skill but it wont launch people into the air at a 45 degree angle http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... UmNU#t=30s . The internal training I practice and still have a long way to go in often involves moment it is just so small people would say I am not moving, the movement is physical it is just internal, tension in the tendons, engagement in the muscles its a subtle proses.

Much of Qi Gong is like that, there is way more than some light stretching. The intention you have in the practice is in itself essential to the proses:

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/spor ... strong.htm

Intention training alone can give you a 13%+ muscle strength boost and if you can also learn to use more muscles at once (internal body connection) and breath correctly you can move way beyond what most people can do without ever evoking the supper natural. Having said that I doubt most Qi Gong teachers know the correctly complete practices.

By writing off traditional internal practices you are missing out on some very practical and scientifically quantifiable training practices that could really help your training.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:59 pm

pete5770 wrote:
I'll go along with you on your statement that "Physics it may be.... do the training...". Push hands is how you develop this "sense". To me it's still just a boatload of training, Physics, technique, and learning sensitivity to opponents. I have never made more of it than that. Call me a failure if you will but I don't feel that way. To me, my Tai Chi is progressing along just fine and any improvement that comes along will be the result of more training and better sensitivity.
You may call it Chi if you wish. I call it practice.


Ignoring your idea on push hands (as you would never understand nor appreciate what me and the group I play with do pete), you are incorrect. Edison, as I understand it, had one heck of a time getting anyone interested in the electric light bulb, but that didn't lessen the reality of electricity. 2000 years ago, the chinese doctors had to put a name to that same stuff (today, professionals are calling it bioelectricity), so they used the word Qi. Practice is a physical activity. Qi is an energy. You cannot compare the 2! Just because you havent experienced it, doesnt make it fiction. It means only that you have been lied to. What you do ISNT tai chi, despite your protests. IT isnt qigong. It is nothing but a silly form of slow moving dance.

Please stop insulting the rest of us and go about your life without tai chi (you have lived for 40 years without it up to this point, so it shouldnt be hard to do).

Prove me wrong. Put up a video of your dance. After 40 years, it would be a treat to see such perfection. In other words, PUT UP or SHUT UP! If you were at least educated on the topic that would be one thing, but for months, you have proven you dont even understand the very basics after 40 years. Just one video of you, doing your tai chi. I bet you couldnt get past the opening standing position without failing on all tai chi principles.

good luck mate.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby pete5770 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:59 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote:
I'll go along with you on your statement that "Physics it may be.... do the training...". Push hands is how you develop this "sense". To me it's still just a boatload of training, Physics, technique, and learning sensitivity to opponents. I have never made more of it than that. Call me a failure if you will but I don't feel that way. To me, my Tai Chi is progressing along just fine and any improvement that comes along will be the result of more training and better sensitivity.
You may call it Chi if you wish. I call it practice.


2000 years ago, the chinese doctors had to put a name to that same stuff (today, professionals are calling it bioelectricity), so they used the word Qi. Practice is a physical activity. Qi is an energy.

Prove me wrong. Put up a video of your dance.


Is Qi the same energy that sees us through the days of our lives? Is it what allows us to move at all? Or is it some "special" energy not related to physical activity?

As for your "Prove me wrong." idea. Hell, I'm so technically challenged that I can't even post pictures on the web(and I have tried). Doing what you ask would require getting my 10 year old nephew to help me out. However it is an interesting idea, this videoing yourself then posting it to this website for everyone to critique. Maybe we should all do it. I have always learned a lot from other peoples ideas and thoughts(even yours). It always interests me, this watching others do Tai Chi. Anyone else out there who might join us in this "bold experiment"? I'll have to see what I can get setup and then get hold of my nephew. Anyone have any hints on how best to show a bit of the form without having to move the camera all over? Any ideas on what to include (what portion of the form)that would give the best look, realizing that we're only talking about 5 minutes or so? We are only talking 5 minutes or so, right? Not the whole long form?
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:25 pm

pete, it wouldnt matter. I have a very good idea what it looks like (and it isnt even close). Dont waste your time or your nephews. You have no clue as to what tai chi is, so leave it at that. Move on with your life.

as to your "prove it", mate i have already sent video clips to the boss. it is YOU that needs to prove you arent ignorant. All your comments regarding the basis of tai chi prove that you are ignorant. Prove that you can move without breaking ONE taiji principle (which shouldnt be a problem after 40 YEARS of work). Like i said, my money is on that you couldnt even raise your hands properly without double weighting nor moving out of harmony with yin and yang. That s a whole 10 seconds.

move on mate. your fraud has been found out and you have failed to convince anyone (except your own delusions) as to what you do. Go troll another forum.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby pete5770 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:51 am

wpgtaiji wrote:pete, it wouldnt matter. I have a very good idea what it looks like (and it isnt even close). Dont waste your time or your nephews.

as to your "prove it", mate i have already sent video clips to the boss.


I figured that you really didn't want me to post anything. It was a challenge that you thought I wouldn't do. Actually I like the idea and will give it a shot. I know your critical, all seeing, eye is sure to spot many, many, many wrong things or possibly everything I do is wrong but it sounds like fun. Might even encourage others to seek a bit of advice in the same way. In any case you couldn't possibly think or say anything worse about me than you already have so why not do it.

Note to others - I am still seeking advice on how to best video this upcoming 5 minute epic.

Note to "wpgtaichi" - Who is this "boss" person and what did you send him / her?
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:31 am

That you think I said to post the video here (not link it) is staggering. Please, move on with your life. No one wants to see shittte slow dancing. There is already too much of that on the net. spare us and just admit that you are a fraud and that you have been lying to us all this time. Move on with your dignity in tact. Like my teacher told me one time, there are some people you cannot comment on for corrections because what they are doing is so bad that, in order to correct them, you would first have to reteach them the correct stuff.

Just move on with your life. Tai chi is not your thing. Admit it to yourself. You are naive if you think that I have been "harsh" to you up to now. I am trying to put realism into your head. I am sure you are a fine bloke outside of tai chi, but with respect to tai chi, no. if ignorance is bliss, mate, you are already in heaven.

dont waste your time. just move on...
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby pete5770 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:17 am

wpgtaiji wrote: You are naive if you think that I have been "harsh" to you up to now. I am trying to put realism into your head.


Now you have really got my curiosity up. What would you term "harsh"? I mean, you have already said things about others and myself that border on getting you banned. What else is there? In any case I'm still going to give video a shot. At the very least you'll have a great laugh, amuse your friends, and have further proof that I am the fraud you claim me to be. Don't be such a sourpuss. This could be fun. :wink: :wink:
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:53 am

Found this, publically available on YouTube...(could it be 'you know who'??)

http://www.youtube.com/user/wpgtaiji
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby pete5770 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:59 am

Brian wrote:Found this, publically available on YouTube...(could it be 'you know who'??)

http://www.youtube.com/user/wpgtaiji



I do believe you've hit the mother lode. I like it. Slow, soft, compact, no flashy arm movement.
My taste goes for a deeper stance than his but that's just me. I was thinking that his hands needed to be just a bit more open with the palm out a bit more, styles differ.
The pajamas are nice too. My wife bought me a pair with peace signs on them. I'll try and remember to wear them on my video.
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Re: Tai Chi & Qigong

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:50 am

Brian wrote:Found this, publically available on YouTube...(could it be 'you know who'??)

http://www.youtube.com/user/wpgtaiji


Pure and utter rubbish that is... So many mistakes that it hurts my eyes... The dude can't even do Preparation correctly... sigh He is faking the "small frame"... he has broken his garden in Grasp Swallows Tail... butt is sticking out.. torso is not leaning forward... yin/yang changes are not there... the movement before An is incomplete.. the stance from Double Peng to An is incorrect.. no balance moving into single whip... shoulders are raised (almost by ears)... the fajing is put on (not correct)... move into shoulder press is incorrect.. head does not stay lateral to the ground.. another posting issue moving into brush knee... the brush knee sequence is just horrible... stance length is ridiculous... again, another fake into small frame.. torso leaning... sigh

overall a poor attempt to represent the Old Yang style. I hope that dude corrects those mistakes... oh right. Nevermind
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