Ability testing?

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Ability testing?

Postby yat_chum » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:58 am

Is this a good way to test one's abilities?

Karate Vs Wing Chun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f7td8Hc-V4

Wing Chun Vs Muay Thai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU8B6eNm2zs
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:30 pm

Sure is. That is if you don't mind taking an *ss whipping every now and then, and you will take a few. :wink:
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue May 01, 2012 8:36 am

Please tell me, what does it prove? Why are they doing it?

I can only see one real reason.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Tue May 01, 2012 8:51 am

wpgtaiji wrote:Please tell me, what does it prove? Why are they doing it?

I can only see one real reason.


Well, these are obviously "manly men" and must prove themselves to themselves. It's the same old story of men trying to prove themselves worthy of being men, but in reality no one ELSE but them really cares. :? :?
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue May 01, 2012 7:41 pm

I have always thought sparring was silly. What does it prove? I was in a karate tournament when i was 11 years old. I actually LOST a match because I punched to the face and he didn't block and i made light contact (no contact tournament). After that, my use for that activity was right up there with getting teeth pulled.

Also, no one could ever explain to me why, once the thing is on, everyone looks the same. It told my young mind that there was something very wrong with the whole practice.

When I first started working with Erle's material, he made it make sense. I will not go into much of it, but basically, the reason everyone looks the same when its on (distance closed and contact is imminent), is because technique goes out the window and we rely on reflex. If you are able to use a pre-arranged technique in sparring, the person you are sparring isnt close to your level OR you got lucky. Either way, nothing to brag about.

The next thing is, how do you assess reflex? You can't. It just happens. And if it is done right, the person is hurt badly, if it isnt done right, then the reflex isnt trained well. That is why Erle taught methods, to train the subconscious mind to react in certain ways to a situation. Most people never understand this (and I have their words to that truth). In martial arts, the simple is always the best.

So again, what does this prove? What is its purpose? It is ONLY for ego, which has no place in a real martial art. To quote my favorite quote, "Martial art to live. Never live to martial art". How many of us get that wrong?
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Postby yat_chum » Wed May 02, 2012 4:40 am

It is all about your motivation, to me sparring is about answering and asking questions, it's about learning how to use your techniques, it is about improving your own skill and not about putting someone else down. I would never go in to another school like this guy, it seems to be asking for trouble but I have sparred with many styles. They have different fighting languages and ask different question and have different answers. Sparring with class mates is good but you only learn to be able to play with your own style.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Wed May 02, 2012 7:09 am

wpgtaiji wrote: "Martial art to live. Never live to martial art". How many of us get that wrong?


And what if the opposite is true? Plenty of people out there who love to fight. Who's to say a little competition insn't a good thing. I think your "Martial art to live. Never......" is a noble
sounding thing but why learn to drive a car then simply stay a passenger all your life?
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed May 02, 2012 8:14 am

pete5770 wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote: "Martial art to live. Never live to martial art". How many of us get that wrong?


And what if the opposite is true? Plenty of people out there who love to fight. Who's to say a little competition insn't a good thing. I think your "Martial art to live. Never......" is a noble
sounding thing but why learn to drive a car then simply stay a passenger all your life?


Of all of that, you took the part that isn't mine! woW! LOL

mate, it means that you are NOT to make your martial art your life. There are more important things in life than taiji (or any other art). We are supposed to do the martial art to make the rest of our lives better. In other words, to live more relaxed, open, caring, etc. If your art doesnt do this for you, it isnt a good art.

I basically called sparring the biggest waste of time one could take part in to learn real self defence reflexes, and you question that part... it says a lot.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Wed May 02, 2012 8:40 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote: "Martial art to live. Never live to martial art". How many of us get that wrong?


And what if the opposite is true? Plenty of people out there who love to fight. Who's to say a little competition insn't a good thing. I think your "Martial art to live. Never......" is a noble
sounding thing but why learn to drive a car then simply stay a passenger all your life?


Of all of that, you took the part that isn't mine! woW! LOL

mate, it means that you are NOT to make your martial art your life. There are more important things in life than taiji (or any other art).

I basically called sparring the biggest waste of time one could take part in to learn real self defence reflexes, and you question that part... it says a lot.


I think you equate me asking a question with me having that opinion. It was a "what if..." thing.

Also while on the "what if..." subject. What's wrong with martial arts being your life or your lifes work?

As for sparring, it would seem that a whole lot of fighters do it, in all kinds of martial arts, and I'm betting that the ones who do it, seriously, will have a decided advantage in your "real self defence".
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Postby yat_chum » Wed May 02, 2012 9:42 am

Hi wpgtaiji, if you don't spar how do you train?
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Re:

Postby pete5770 » Wed May 02, 2012 10:05 am

yat_chum wrote:Hi wpgtaiji, if you don't spar how do you train?


+1
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed May 02, 2012 12:56 pm

pete5770 wrote:Also while on the "what if..." subject. What's wrong with martial arts being your life or your lifes work?

As for sparring, it would seem that a whole lot of fighters do it, in all kinds of martial arts, and I'm betting that the ones who do it, seriously, will have a decided advantage in your "real self defence".


As to the first, my teacher changed the face of taiji in the modern world, like him or not. He took a stand against the "hippies", teaching that indeed, taiji IS the ultimate self defence art. He devoted 40 years to that, yet, his main focus of his life was his family and his music (as it was). People who make any one thing their "life" have issues. There is nothing wrong with seeking to make a living and such with the martial arts, but realize there is more to life.

As to the other (and yat's question), it is a difference in prioritizing.

What does sparring teach you? I know people say it teaches technique, timing, distance, etc, but really, what are you learning?

What i mean is, in the street, in a real situation, do you have time to dance around your attacker? Do you get a chance to prepare before hand? Or is it just on? If you are fighting another martial artist FOR REAL, then neither of you are very good (a martial artist will try EVERY opportunity to not fight, because to fight means someone WILL get hurt). Any other "fight" is ego.

Now, take aside EGO, and what do you have? No reason to spar!

To answer the question, we use methods to train the subconscious reflexes to work when we dont have time to prepare. In other words, when self defence REALLY matters. Erle taught that we use methods to get to the "no mind" state, so that we react correctly to whatever situation we find ourselves at any moment. I would say "we use push hands" as one of the methods, but to 99% of taiji people (and those unfamiliar with the correct WTBA method) it means nothing.

After many years of training (i am not there yet), the seniors don full protective gear and attack the student UNTIL that student registers a "fatal" blow on the padding. The whole thing is to see how the reflex mind is coming.

See, if we take a look at what sparring is actually teaching you, it may not be what you want it to! For example, how does a self defence situation happen on the street? (ask someone who's been stabbed). It just is there! How does sparring take place? BEGIN! Really the same thing! Oh right, not even close. What happens next? In a self defence situation, if it is a knife or serious threat, you have no time to prepare as the attacker knows to get it on quick and over with. In the ring we dance around testing each other. What are we learning? right! No transferable skills there.

When we finally close, what are we learning in the ring? RIGHT! Long range, medium range, short range attacks! Its as if we can have different arms or legs.. no. OH! SO it is really only when they get close to us (medium close range) that they can really hurt us.. so what is sparing teaching us?

And last, because it is such an emotional experience for so many, they are not really learning how to read the opponent because they are tense and worried about not looking stupid (funny how not being hurt isnt usualy an issue).

We take a student through a process to help them learn in relaxed ways, to read the body to see power punches, etc to really be able to defend themselves. It is important to note that there are some who dont understand this process (as there are in any system). But the ones that do, they produce excellent over all results.

It is funny, people seemed to always criticize Erle on forums (there are topics on this board to that effect), yet NEVER to his face (when he was alive). Why? because what he taught produced results, unlike the majority of taiji available. And it is amazing that he focused EQUALLY on healing in his classes and seminars (DVD's unfortunately not because they are topic orientated, though you do get gems sometimes).

Sorry it probably wasnt what you wanted, but, like i said, i could have just said "push hands and sansau", but that wouldnt help anything. That is really all we do, but totally unlike the majority, and for totally different motivations, from what it seems.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby sub_human » Wed May 02, 2012 8:44 pm

Sparring allows u to be truthful to urself.

It is like a verbal debate, to practice what u know and to learn what u dont. It allows u to come to an understanding of ur shen & the power it holds.

no lies... no theory... just honesty! (Upon urself)


*the escalation & lack of respect in those videos suggest fighting, not sparring.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu May 03, 2012 12:02 pm

Welcome

Truthful about what? Please elaborate. I know you think you know what you refer too, but what you refer too must be made CLEAR! This is a forum of WORDS! Assuming only makes..
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby sub_human » Thu May 03, 2012 3:35 pm

Greetings, & thank you...


Why do anything, if not without purpose?

To know urself, is to be truthful with one's self. To know, one must ask..

Within topic, Sparring is the question...
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu May 03, 2012 5:10 pm

sub_human wrote:Why do anything, if not without purpose?

To know urself, is to be truthful with one's self. To know, one must ask..

Within topic, Sparring is the question...


With respect to sparring, what are you truthful about? It is a game of tag! I know its emotional, and people THINK they have done something wonderful by getting in and mixing it up, but at its core, it is nothing but a game of "i touch you, you touch me", aka TAG!

Being TRUTHFUL with your training is doing things that will actually teach you to respond to unprepared situations. In sparring, when they say "BEGIN", you are ready for anything. In the street, you dont get that. It just is on and you need your reflexes to deal with it.

There is also no threat of being seriously injured. In training methods (like i mentioned above), there also isnt that threat, but we play GAMES! WE play games to teach us about how to see power coming at you and to deal with it. Over time, these become reflex actions that work for us. In sparing, this COULD happen, but how? 99% of people doing sparing dont know how to train this way. They just get in and do stuff to each other. Maybe, they do incorrect techniques (incorrect from the aspect of what they will be facing in the street! Practicing defending against a lunge punch is great and all, but in the street, how many attacks are going to come that way? none) so they are not training for real self defence.

So again, what are you honest about? If you look at it, sparing is only about EGO. It gives people a false sense of security! For crying out loud, I have seen women attend a boxercise or kickboxercise class ONE TIME and think they can defend themselves!


btw, your response should be put up for the title of the vaguest response in the history of forum posts! LOL Answer by not answering! I love it! :)
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Thu May 03, 2012 6:00 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
sub_human wrote:Why do anything, if not without purpose?

To know urself, is to be truthful with one's self. To know, one must ask..

Within topic, Sparring is the question...


With respect to sparring, what are you truthful about? It is a game of tag! I know its emotional, and people THINK they have done something wonderful by getting in and mixing it up, but at its core, it is nothing but a game of "i touch you, you touch me", aka TAG!

Being TRUTHFUL with your training is doing things that will actually teach you to respond to unprepared situations. In sparring, when they say "BEGIN", you are ready for anything. In the street, you dont get that. It just is on and you need your reflexes to deal with it.

There is also no threat of being seriously injured. In training methods (like i mentioned above), there also isnt that threat, but we play GAMES! WE play games to teach us about how to see power coming at you and to deal with it. Over time, these become reflex actions that work for us. In sparing, this COULD happen, but how? 99% of people doing sparing dont know how to train this way. They just get in and do stuff to each other. Maybe, they do incorrect techniques (incorrect from the aspect of what they will be facing in the street! Practicing defending against a lunge punch is great and all, but in the street, how many attacks are going to come that way? none) so they are not training for real self defence.

So again, what are you honest about? If you look at it, sparing is only about EGO. It gives people a false sense of security! For crying out loud, I have seen women attend a boxercise or kickboxercise class ONE TIME and think they can defend themselves!


btw, your response should be put up for the title of the vaguest response in the history of forum posts! LOL Answer by not answering! I love it! :)


What's wrong with playing tag and having an ego? :? :?
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Thu May 03, 2012 6:08 pm

I trhink the question "Is this a good way to test....?" was actually answered by the video's he posted. It showed people getting tested and taking a few lumps doing it. I say if you want to test yourself, for whatever reason, hop into the ring, so to speak, and have at it. Just don't expect to come out without a scratch because ya never know about that guy accross the ring. He may take his bad day out on you and you yourself may not be as good as you think.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu May 03, 2012 10:10 pm

pete5770 wrote:
What's wrong with playing tag and having an ego? :? :?


There is nothing wrong with that. Just dont PRETEND you are doing something else, like fighting, nor tell people that it means something. btw, I am beginning to think you dont actually read posts pete.. you just scan for something to argue with or like and then forget the rest..

Why not take that same time and energy and do something that actually helps, both for getting face time with a partner (which is vital), and for teaching your "fighting" reflexes? Sparing does one, but not the other more important one for self defence.

Now, if your goal is to be a sport master and an olympic champion of tag, then by all means! Just dont pretend that you do self defence and dont teach others that you teach self defense.

I just want to know how sparring is being honest? Because everything i see about that activity is exactly the opposite of honesty.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby sub_human » Sat May 05, 2012 11:27 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
sub_human wrote:Why do anything, if not without purpose?

To know urself, is to be truthful with one's self. To know, one must ask..

Within topic, Sparring is the question...


With respect to sparring, what are you truthful about? It is a game of tag! I know its emotional, and people THINK they have done something wonderful by getting in and mixing it up, but at its core, it is nothing but a game of "i touch you, you touch me", aka TAG!

Being TRUTHFUL with your training is doing things that will actually teach you to respond to unprepared situations. In sparring, when they say "BEGIN", you are ready for anything. In the street, you dont get that. It just is on and you need your reflexes to deal with it.

There is also no threat of being seriously injured. In training methods (like i mentioned above), there also isnt that threat, but we play GAMES! WE play games to teach us about how to see power coming at you and to deal with it. Over time, these become reflex actions that work for us. In sparing, this COULD happen, but how? 99% of people doing sparing dont know how to train this way. They just get in and do stuff to each other. Maybe, they do incorrect techniques (incorrect from the aspect of what they will be facing in the street! Practicing defending against a lunge punch is great and all, but in the street, how many attacks are going to come that way? none) so they are not training for real self defence.

So again, what are you honest about? If you look at it, sparing is only about EGO. It gives people a false sense of security! For crying out loud, I have seen women attend a boxercise or kickboxercise class ONE TIME and think they can defend themselves!


btw, your response should be put up for the title of the vaguest response in the history of forum posts! LOL Answer by not answering! I love it! :)




I am uncertain if you are asking a question^, or making a statement...?

Coincidentally, I agree with very little you've posted, because it's based on ur emotions, & I was talking (in general), as to why people Practice, Spar, Test, etc..

My post centered on the root of these acts & were as brief as possible, as not to cloud the point (topic) with personal baggage.



Why play baseball game if you know the outcome? (ie: the truth)
We don't, so 2 teams must match up, to know the truth, because on paper One can only know so much about One's self before they must face the reality...

Before hand.. you can only lie to urself. Afterward.. (win or lose) u have answer about urself.

Also, If you do not challenge urself (in anything you do in life), then how do you go about finding the answers? (Know urself.. & u will be at ur fullest potential.)


Everything is an internal art..




*all of this was explained in my first post
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