Postures of Taijiquan

Discuss Taijiquan or other soft styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby adamfuray » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:16 am

your scientology analogy was perfect.
"I know sir, that I have played out of tune, but when I learn where to place my fingers, this shall no longer happen."-Giovanni Bottesini
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby sub_human » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:29 pm

I had not known that Erle was an "expert" in Traditional Chinese Medicine.
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:12 pm

sub_human wrote:I had not known that Erle was an "expert" in Traditional Chinese Medicine.


No one ever said he was an expert! He worked with a man named Chris Madden, who was. Wally is also there. He also met top TCM doctor's (highlighted on MTG 6), literally, of the family who wrote acupuncture text books.

I wish it was easy to post a link to the clip, but alas, I dont hold copyright on ANY Moontagu title, and the 3-10 minute clips he put up on YouTube generally dont show the bits where he talks about his past and stuff.

As to the meridian theory, I wish it was Erle who came up with it. It was he who shared the info with reference to taiji, but the information has always been available in the internal arts (at least back to Sun luc tang, who wrote the first books on the idea, as far as I am aware). Josh, you are fixated on ONE person with this idea, but you have missed the other stylists (in other arts) who say the same thing. THat is what struck me the most about Erle. People who never met him, nor had any knowledge of what he was doing, teach the very same ideas. How? He took it from them?? I dont think so! Erle has the methods on video at the time when the other teacher was just starting out his journey! Interesting...

Please, lets get back to the topics and stop trying to debase the messenger. While I, personally, have quoted Erle on this forum, I am extremely flexible and feel just as comfortable discussing a variety of other "master's" materials. Let's get back to what a forum is for. People have been saying things about Erle for a long time, but never EVER to his face. I wonder why? Oh right! He had the goods and taught it openly, which is more than most of us would have ever done.
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby pete5770 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:16 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
sub_human wrote:I had not known that Erle was an "expert" in Traditional Chinese Medicine.


No one ever said he was an expert! He worked with a man named Chris Madden, who was. Wally is also there. He also met top TCM doctor's (highlighted on MTG 6), literally, of the family who wrote acupuncture text books.

I wish it was easy to post a link to the clip, but alas, I dont hold copyright on ANY Moontagu title, and the 3-10 minute clips he put up on YouTube generally dont show the bits where he talks about his past and stuff.

As to the meridian theory, I wish it was Erle who came up with it. It was he who shared the info with reference to taiji, but the information has always been available in the internal arts (at least back to Sun luc tang, who wrote the first books on the idea, as far as I am aware). Josh, you are fixated on ONE person with this idea, but you have missed the other stylists (in other arts) who say the same thing. THat is what struck me the most about Erle. People who never met him, nor had any knowledge of what he was doing, teach the very same ideas. How? He took it from them?? I dont think so! Erle has the methods on video at the time when the other teacher was just starting out his journey! Interesting...

Please, lets get back to the topics and stop trying to debase the messenger. While I, personally, have quoted Erle on this forum, I am extremely flexible and feel just as comfortable discussing a variety of other "master's" materials. Let's get back to what a forum is for. People have been saying things about Erle for a long time, but never EVER to his face. I wonder why? Oh right! He had the goods and taught it openly, which is more than most of us would have ever done.


This guy really got his hooks into you? Didn't he? Remember, human being, not a God.
:?
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby Inga » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:49 am

Please heed Dvivid's posting that we accept all forms of taiji here. Wpgtaiji has made the point, which I think is well taken, please keep to topic and stop making personal criticisms. If people here enjoy caustic argument, then feel free to swap your private emails via PM and continue your conversation in private. Airing sarcastic and dismissive comments here detracts from the exchange of experience, knowledge and information which the forum wishes to promote.
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby caesar » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:00 am

Perhaps a god for wpgtaiji but for the most of us not.

wpgtaiji: I appreciate you as a martial artist and Erle's system must be very efficient. I'm not gonna join this debate about what's real tai chi and what's not. I would have opinions on it but not gonna share them...as I think everyone's noticed already, this debate is a dead horse in this forum with only negativity and endless fighting.

But wpgtaiji. Have you noticed that while you ask the forum members to:

Please, lets get back to the topics and stop trying to debase the messenger. While I, personally, have quoted Erle on this forum, I am extremely flexible and feel just as comfortable discussing a variety of other "master's" materials.


...you yourself often draw the subject of this debate into air. If you read your own posts you will see that you are quite often being arrogant towards other styles of tai chi, or you don't even want to admit them being called tai chi. I mean I hear you saying "please let's stop this" yet you go on saying that Chen form isn't tai chi, or you say that the Yang Cheng-Fu form is watered down, unbalanced and especially inferior to your "Old Yang."

Do you really speculate why there's so much hatred in the posts when you have many times said degrading comments on the styles many people practise in this forum? I bet you wouldn't feel very receptive yourself towards someone coming to tell you "Well Erle was good but far inferior to 'this and that and those and blah blah'"

Or does your bitterness arise from Erle's system to be known a little questionable in the internet community? If you are so happy with your system, and you are sure that you are the one training the ultimate form...then why bash other styles all the time, not giving space for healthy debate? If you are doing something most most extremely ultimately best tai chi and qi gong and bagua...which are all known for being said to be healthy and mind calming arts...then why all the negativity? I bet it doesn't have to be this way since your teacher Erle was known for liking everyone and being such a warm and friendly person.

Sometimes I think you've said some good and helpful comments on this forum and some have thanked you for those. I also! But at the same I have caution towards you. Why? Because I'm training a style of tai chi (Cheng-Fu) which you have already implied to be inferior to yours. EVEN if you were right, the repeating of bashing other styles doens't give me the feeling that you have found peace and calmness from your own system. But I bet you have! But to my eyes, you are not showing it here, in this forum. I hope you would!
(and nobody is perfect, everyone has skeletons in the closet and you should see me loose my temper IRL) :)

Mate. Tell me, how are things?
I don't mean to provoke, and I also bet that my way of writing might rise negativity and has to yet improve a lot.

Cheers
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby caesar » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:18 am

Inga wrote:Please heed Dvivid's posting that we accept all forms of taiji here. Wpgtaiji has made the point, which I think is well taken, please keep to topic and stop making personal criticisms. If people here enjoy caustic argument, then feel free to swap your private emails via PM and continue your conversation in private. Airing sarcastic and dismissive comments here detracts from the exchange of experience, knowledge and information which the forum wishes to promote.


You are right. Perhaps I'm now guilty of keeping this thread off the topic. But I same time felt that it will be off topic anyway before some things can be openly expressed.
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby Josh Young » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:24 am

wpgtaiji wrote:No one ever said he was an expert! He worked with a man named Chris Madden, who was. Wally is also there. He also met top TCM doctor's (highlighted on MTG 6), literally, of the family who wrote acupuncture text books.

His meridian work is very well developed via his collaborations, to the point that he had a lot of material in his system that was/is unique. I would never claim he is an expert in TCM, but he did meet a few of them and benefited from it.

Josh, you are fixated on ONE person with this idea, but you have missed the other stylists (in other arts) who say the same thing. THat is what struck me the most about Erle. People who never met him, nor had any knowledge of what he was doing, teach the very same ideas. How?


A lot of his content is not said by anyone but him, this relates to his copyrights for exclusive content. I don't know of another system that claims that Cheng-fu became fat because of the angle his arm was at in a single posture. My issues with some of Erles teachings come from them contradicting teachings of internal martial arts. He has a lot of content about meridians that is unique to him that comes from his collaborations, I appreciate a lot of it. I still work with a WTBA instructor for training and appreciate the martial content of the system, but that doesn't mean I am going to believe that 2+2=17 just because Erle said so.
People have been saying things about Erle for a long time, but never EVER to his face. I wonder why?


I never met him or I would have.
I had no problem emailing him to ask questions, and he was very supportive, he also warned me that some of his followers were basically unreasonable cult members and I had to be careful of them.


What I created this thread for was to allow an elaboration on a point that I thought was worth discussion. I simply don't like the intolerance that arises for views that are different from the WTBA, one need not insult others for having different views. Erle and his cult have a way of saying something and then dismissing all other concepts, no matter how valid, and insulting anyone who disagrees with them. I can't say I appreciate that.

Gord, I really don't care about Erle here, you bring him here and I address it, but I wanted to know what you thought, about the single posture notion, not what Erle thought. I had hoped to exchange info and ideas with you and leave the world of Erle Montaigue for the WTBA.
Oh right! He had the goods and taught it openly, which is more than most of us would have ever done.

You are entitled to that opinion.
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:37 pm

Josh Young wrote:A lot of his content is not said by anyone but him, this relates to his copyrights for exclusive content. I don't know of another system that claims that Cheng-fu became fat because of the angle his arm was at in a single posture. My issues with some of Erles teachings come from them contradicting teachings of internal martial arts. He has a lot of content about meridians that is unique to him that comes from his collaborations, I appreciate a lot of it. I still work with a WTBA instructor for training and appreciate the martial content of the system, but that doesn't mean I am going to believe that 2+2=17 just because Erle said so.

And the important thing is, neither do I! Like i put, you focus on Erle, but you neglect (and worse, are not even aware) that other people and arts teach the same ideas (what you call meridian theory)! Its all out there mate! In fact, most of what Erle taught, and more important, HOW he taught things is being done in other styles, unrelated to the WTBA.

As to what you consider "internal", mate, that is your right as a free thinking human being (I assume, anyway).

As to the Chen fu thing.. mate, I have no idea how you pieced it together that way. The chart, which you copied previous, says that Fist under Elbow (chen fu), vs the posture done in the old yang style, is used to Gain Weight... he never said anywhere (and I have looked deeply and even asked him about it when he was around) that gaining weight is fat! Gaining weight, he meant, was adding muscle mass. Where you got "get fat", I have no idea. That is why you never assume.

Also, that chart was not his! He put it out there, but he did not make it up. I asked him about a few of the postures (how that same posture in luchan looses weight), and he told he that he really wasn't sure, that it was what he was told. He reasoned it had something to do with the Earth meridians (spleen/stomach) being twisted in the posture, as well as the vigor of the way the posture is done. Some of the postures, like Grasp Swallows tail (Prep to An, for those who separate the postures in general), work on the colon, and are easily shown.

Back to the original idea of the topic, I find it interesting that you sort of like the idea that Taiji is one movement. I find it interesting because the main principle of that idea, is something you have already talked down to me. That is why I wrote, that the idea, while nice, is not easy, especially, if you dont agree with or know the foundation ideas the original comment was made on.
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby Josh Young » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:14 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:And the important thing is, neither do I! Like i put, you focus on Erle, but you neglect (and worse, are not even aware) that other people and arts teach the same ideas (what you call meridian theory)!

Gord, I wonder sometimes if you read what I write here at all...

Can you show anywhere where I say that meridian theory is incorrect?
Can you show anywhere where I say that meridians don't exist?

I do contest the idea that the form is based on meridian activation, however can you show that idea being taught by someone other than Erle? I know he did not invent the idea, but I also know a lot more about this topic than I post here.
Its all out there mate! In fact, most of what Erle taught, and more important, HOW he taught things is being done in other styles, unrelated to the WTBA.

Cool, can you give me a couple of examples?

As to the Chen fu thing.. mate, I have no idea how you pieced it together that way. The chart, which you copied previous, says that Fist under Elbow (chen fu), vs the posture done in the old yang style, is used to Gain Weight... he never said anywhere (and I have looked deeply and even asked him about it when he was around) that gaining weight is fat! Gaining weight, he meant, was adding muscle mass. Where you got "get fat", I have no idea.

Interesting... can you show me where he says that he meant muscle mass? The oral teaching in the WTBA that I got from people Erle taught says that it is fat and not muscle mass, I even saw a WTBA teacher warn students that the Cheng-fu version of the posture could make them fat.

I could point out thousands of people who do the posture Cheng-fu style but do not gain weight, not muscle or fat. I've seen a person do the Chen Pan Ling 99 form you call the Old Yang and gain muscle as well... :wink:

Also, that chart was not his! He put it out there, but he did not make it up. I asked him about a few of the postures (how that same posture in luchan looses weight), and he told he that he really wasn't sure, that it was what he was told.

So... you say he published a chart (from someone else) as his own, then copyrighted it and said that any unauthorized reproduction was prohibited and when you called him on the claims of the chart, he said he didn't know but was just repeating what he was told? Let me guess, he didn't tell you who he got the chart from and you don't know...? He doesn't credit anyone else in that article either.

So you say that Erle was told that material? That is what he told you I take it? Can you find that content from any other teacher or in any other system? That chart, any of it. I'd love some evidence for the idea that Erle was taught that and that other systems or styles teach it (where, when, who)
He reasoned it had something to do with the Earth meridians (spleen/stomach) being twisted in the posture, as well as the vigor of the way the posture is done.

Ok, I'd love some confirmation of this belief outside of the WTBA is all.

Some of the postures, like Grasp Swallows tail (Prep to An, for those who separate the postures in general), work on the colon, and are easily shown.

I realize this is as opposed to the original "grasp sparrows tail", which is now called "ward off left" and is about the sequence, I'd love some evidence about this colon thing. You say it is easily shown, could you please do so? If you cannot, that is ok, but in the absence of evidence it would be nice to at least see some other systems that teach this, that the sequence in question works the Colon. There is another theory about how and why it was created, actually I can find two more theories about why the form is what it is; from Erle himself and they can't all be true. (he often contradicts himself in different versions of the same text, see his early hand bound books for clear examples of this)
Back to the original idea of the topic, I find it interesting that you sort of like the idea that Taiji is one movement. I find it interesting because the main principle of that idea, is something you have already talked down to me.


Gord, when did I talk this idea down, or talk down to you for it? Please show me anywhere where I contradict or challenge this idea. I can show you a lot of content, including from years past, where I delve into the concept and go far beyond it. One can take it to the next level and say that there are no postures in taiji, that taiji is like -1+1 in a way. The same thing is involved in application theory, there are no applications in a formal sense.

That is why I wrote, that the idea, while nice, is not easy, especially, if you dont agree with or know the foundation ideas the original comment was made on.


Ok, so because you think I disagreed with you on this, you said that the idea is difficult if you don't know the foundation ideas? So you are admitting that based on someone having what you thought was a different opinion you said that if they didn't agree with you it was because the concept was too hard or they lacked enough knowledge? Have you read the Emperors New Clothes?

Instead of insulting those who have a different view, by saying they must be uneducated or the concept is too advanced, why not share the concept to some degree? I don't think you realized that I agree with this concept and so you basically dished out veiled insults to me for what you thought was my difference of opinion.

I really dare you to share some details and thoughts on this one posture concept that are yours. That is why I made this thread, I wanted Gord Hill to expound upon a concept I thought he would have some interesting views on, I didn't expect the usual condemnation of anyone who disagrees as being inferior, but maybe I should have?

What you shared from Erle shows me something, He published something, you ask him about it, he says he does not know, but just repeated (and sold) what he was told) This means he didn't understand what he was teaching (in this case at the least) but repeated it anyway. I am left wondering, how much of what he taught is material he didn't understand but was just repeating...? And of course others (like you Gord) repeat what Erle taught and refer to him, basically saying "I don't know but Erle said so" and yet Erle does the same thing... I thought he only published material he understood and knew, but he was like so many of his followers just mindlessly repeating what he was taught from someone else. Wow. :!:
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:08 pm

To answer the only question, NO mate. Not much of what you write, I read. As to the rest...
- How do we move (using qi)? - please, educate me on this.
- cheng
- yin
- park
- kumar
- chia
- 5
- roflmao!
- please read again..
- good for you
- please show me where that is put? i didnt get that at all my bad..

Thanks mate. I totally missed that you wanted elaboration. In fact, I have never gotten that from you. If you are serious about wanting a full exposition, I am shocked! I tend to write with an idea, and go from there. That means that a phrasing or sentence (or word for that matter), may not be exactly correct. Why on f*(king earth would anyone choose to put forth the effort to write as much as you ask, only to have it misunderstood, line by line, or worse, misrepresented. That isnt a fun exercise. That you chose to do that, Good for you! I have a life outside of this forum.

Have fun mate.
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby Josh Young » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:45 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:To answer the only question, NO mate. Not much of what you write, I read.

I thought so. That explains why you so often put words in my mouth or claim I believe something that I do not. You simply do not read the posts you choose to respond to. I was wondering about that.

As to the rest...
- How do we move (using qi)? - please, educate me on this.
- cheng
- yin
- park
- kumar
- chia
- 5
- roflmao!
- please read again..
- good for you
- please show me where that is put? i didnt get that at all my bad..

I have no idea what this is about.
Can you please elaborate using complete sentences?

Thanks mate. I totally missed that you wanted elaboration.

I know, I've been trying to get you to elaborate on your own notions for months now. I realize you don't do this, but I have tried.
Why on f*(king earth would anyone choose to put forth the effort to write as much as you ask, only to have it misunderstood, line by line, or worse, misrepresented.

So I am not worthy for your exposition?
You refuse to share because you think nobody will understand?
Writing and reading strike me as very simple and easy, why not share? People minsuderstand, they misrepresent, this is only human. Why are you on a forum if you won't elaborate?
Why do you think I posted a link to your article and asked you to share your thoughts on it?
I get that you missed that I wanted and would appreciate your elaboration, actually I liked your article very much because it was you sharing your own thoughts, something you have yet to do here. I was hoping you would contribute something of your own thinking here, the article proved you can do it.

I have a life outside of this forum.

We all do, so what?
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:56 pm

You make some excellent points! Why am I here?

As to why I dont elaborate, it is because i seem to write things very different from you and others. I get an idea and let it happen. This leads to things that seem to contradict other statements, even though, in reality, it all ties toegether. Having an idea looked at line by line is not entertaining (because one tends to miss the larger idea at times). What do I mean? I dont ever recall putting that Chenfu was useless. In fact, I use it quite frequently (just finished a round 10 minutes ago). There are many established teachers in the WTBA that teach it, and there are LOTS of DVDs on that form at Mootagu. A far cry from what some claim I wrote! The reality is, the form does have certain PHYSICAL limitations (the squatting single whip is ONLY done on the right leg, for example), where the Old Yang form has postures that balance this out (in fact, there are 4 squatting postures, 2 on each leg). I believe I put that in that thread, but again, I tend to edit my thoughts for clarity, so maybe that fell away. Qi wise, there is very little difference in the two forms (especially at the more advanced methods). Just look at Eli doing Grasp swallows tail, and it is clear.

As to the list, I had far less than that, yet I managed to piece things together. It isn't overt! They dont use the same terminology, and there are differences in some teachings. But if you look (and you are very familiar with how Erle taught), similarities stand right out.

Josh, you are looking for taiji sources for the chart, but you arent seeing what is actually on the chart. Taiji is not static. It is a moving sequence. The chart points to some very deep ideas that are shared across other arts. Its right there, as plain as day. I would go into details, but mate, I dont have any interest in having it picked apart piece by piece as is common on forums. It isnt worth the time. And besides, I have talked about it already.

Thanks for saying you like the article. It is written for a WTBA audience, where similar knowledge base is assumed. We have our own groups and we share quite openly on them, discussing issues that rarely talk about Erle or what he taught. On this forum, I have no idea what people know, so I tend to start at the beginning, which makes the whole process cumbersome (having to explain ideas over and over).

And besides, there are people who disagree with how Erle taught fajing, or even that what he taught is fajing! Funny thing about that is, how can you, if you dont accept that premise, even begin to discuss taiji being ONE MOVEMENT, when at its root, its THAT! Everything moves together, as one unit, using one energy. But if a person understands fajing as an explosion only, then it is difficult to see how the energy is reused. And I dont mean to insult ANYONE! There is a video clip on YouTube on Fajing, done by some of Paul Brecher's students. Paul was a long time member of the WTBA, yet, the explaination that his students give is totally incorrect! And these are guys that worked with Erle at UK seminars!

So now, as you rip apart every line, I contemplate the first question. Why am I at this forum?
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby pete5770 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:05 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:You make some excellent points! Why am I here?



I've always found that, in life, at least my life, the important thing is curiosity. Not much else really matters. The thing about it is that this curiosity requires that I ask lots of questions. A lot of people see this as me being somewhat stupid, yet I continue to come up with the questions and with, what seems like every answer, a few new questions arise. To be honest I've never learned anything making statements. It's an excellent question you ask and one that baffles millions. Let me know if you come up with an answer. I never have.
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby Josh Young » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:06 pm

wpgtaiji wrote: I dont ever recall putting that Chenfu was useless. In fact, I use it quite frequently (just finished a round 10 minutes ago). There are many established teachers in the WTBA that teach it, and there are LOTS of DVDs on that form at Mootagu. A far cry from what some claim I wrote!

Did I claim you wrote that?
I don't recall saying writing or thinking that was your view. I have no problem debating and discussing the pros and cons of the Cheng-fu form, but I've yet to see you say it is useless.

Josh, you are looking for taiji sources for the chart, but you arent seeing what is actually on the chart. Taiji is not static. It is a moving sequence. The chart points to some very deep ideas that are shared across other arts.

Gord, it is a taiji chart.
It is about taiji postures.
On this forum, I have no idea what people know

They share a lot of what they know right here, it is awesome!!

And besides, there are people who disagree with how Erle taught fajing, or even that what he taught is fajing! Funny thing about that is, how can you, if you dont accept that premise, even begin to discuss taiji being ONE MOVEMENT, when at its root, its THAT!

I can respect that this is your opinion.

Everything moves together, as one unit, using one energy. But if a person understands fajing as an explosion only, then it is difficult to see how the energy is reused.


No worries fajin translates easily and is well explained and covered by several sources quite well. Most of the people on this forum have a very good understanding of fajin and the many other jin associated with taijiquan. Actually Yang Jwing-Ming is one of the best authors out there on that topic!

:D
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Josh Young wrote:Did I claim you wrote that?
I don't recall saying writing or thinking that was your view. I have no problem debating and discussing the pros and cons of the Cheng-fu form, but I've yet to see you say it is useless.

I know Josh. It wasn't directed to you specifically. It was a series of comments I got back from the forum, not you.

Gord, it is a taiji chart.
It is about taiji postures.

yes, that chart is. However, for the last several posts on this thread, I have been pointing you away from that idea. You are so focused that you can miss the answer right in front of you.

What you (and MANY people, even some of his students that trained with him monthly) is that Erle taught a movement. It is based on the internal arts of taiji and bagua, but it is a movement. This is why we get people critiquing him, saying it isnt taiji. Really? How? Because it isnt chen? It isnt like cheng man ching? Yet, in every other way, it matches other internal movement (from other masters unrelated to his work). Why?

mate, Erle could be wrong with his ideas on the history of taiji. He could have been blowing smoke out of his butt! But what if he wasn't? What if he did meet and study with Chang? with Liang? What if, what he taught did come from Yang Shao hu's cousin? I am not saying this is true, but what if it were?

Let me put it another way. There are people out there saying that Cheng Man-ching, the man credited with bringing Yang taiji up in the states and taiwan, by some "authorities" a master, but why the 37 form? What if he only trained with Chen fu for less than a year? There are some who suggest that that is the reality (I am not saying it is. I have read and enjoyed much of Cheng's work). But what if? What if everything people are teaching as "internal" is milarky? Based on incorrect ideas passed on as "truths" because, like Erle said on one of his DVD's, they didn't want to give the "family jewels" away? Again, I am not suggesting that this is the truth, because, personally, I dont care too much about history. But what if it is? And what if ChenFu actually respected the Family system, by NOT teaching the true art. What does that mean of all his senior teachers? It could explain a lot of what we see today. But I am no history expert (nor do I care much for it).

History is written by the "winners", not the loosers. What could that mean?

Even better, look at what the MAJORITY call Taiji. Why is it in such a sad state of affairs? Once the art of THE teacher of the Chinese royal family, now exclusive to the elderly? That is the heritage of luchan's art? What happened?

See Josh, at the end of the day, history means little, if what is left is rubbish. SO what if Luchan was the best in all of China? Today's art is generally rubbish for the purpose of what it was created for (survival combat).

Now, like I expected of the last post (which you kindly proved to me to be true), line by line you will dissect this, pointing out why Cheng is irrelevant (or relevant), why Erle is blah blah blah.. Mate, I am simply asking questions. What if everything you KNOW to be true, turns out to be not? It happens. People KNEW that red meat and milk had no correlation to heart disease, and they KNEW that exercise could kill you. The government actually fought this out 50 years ago! They KNEW IT! Yet today, it is ridiculous. What will be ridiculous 50 years from today? Taiji is already a shadow... if we continue to not look at the RESULTS, what is the hope for the future?

Forget it.. i lost you at the first sidebar... what a shame this format is. Again, WHY am I here? No idea.... a waste of time, i am beginning to realize.
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby Josh Young » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:43 pm

It is funny, I did have a point by point reply for your Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:56 am post, but I didn't post it.

This topic was never about debating Erle for me, although I don't think you grasp why people are critical of him, nor do I care about that.

This has always been about getting you to share something of your own thoughts on a topic you bring up.

It is also amusing that so much of what you bring up, CMC for example, has been a topic I have been discussing today with someone else. Family Jewels, history etc.

What if everything you KNOW to be true, turns out to be not?

I don't know anything to be true, all we have is belief.
We believe our beliefs are true, but that is not knowledge.

I've been mistaken before, even wrong, it is awesome!It is a great way to learn!
I question my beliefs more than anything, more than I question Erle for sure.

I like tests of truth, using methods of falsification, null hypothesis and comparative analysis etc. I apply them to my beliefs often. If it wasn't for my high standards in that I would never have any issue with Erles claims.

:wink:

Keep in mind you are making this a topic about Erle verses taijiquan when I couldn't care less about that. I still want to learn what you think about the topic in some depth, like how it relates to applications, what works for you etc. :|
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby Dvivid » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:56 am

I would say we don't need such a cynical and negative view about present-day Taijiquan. If you judge taiji by your Mom's group at the park doing some health-oriented practice, then you're only seeing a fraction of what's happening.

People DO realize the martial roots of Chinese arts, and there is great progress with traditional martial artists really studying the applications and original intent of the Chinese arts, thanks largely to published scholars on the subject, like Dr. yang, GM Liang, and yes, even Earle.

The recent Kung Fu magazine martial arts tournament brought a lot of high quality traditional performers from around the world, proving the arts are alive and well, and we needn't complain so much. (Jon Chang, a disciple from YMAA Retreat Center won "Kung Fu grand champion" btw)

As far as taiji being "one posture", its a lot of blithering. Yes, there is the concept of "No shadow, no shape, no form". But Taijiquan originated from the basic 13 postures, or more accurately, 'energy patterns', and this basis has remained intact, explained in great detail, at least since Chen Village began, and likely long before.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:43 am

Dvivid wrote:I would say we don't need such a cynical and negative view about present-day Taijiquan. If you judge taiji by your Mom's group at the park doing some health-oriented practice, then you're only seeing a fraction of what's happening.

Where is the rest of it? Please tell me? Outside a few small groups, much of the "combat" talk of taiji is garbage on its face! No better than the applications given by a self defence teacher, yet more dangerous, because of the bundle of lies attached to it.

As far as taiji being "one posture", its a lot of blithering. Yes, there is the concept of "No shadow, no shape, no form". But Taijiquan originated from the basic 13 postures, or more accurately, 'energy patterns', and this basis has remained intact, explained in great detail, at least since Chen Village began, and likely long before.

I literally have no words to this. Blithering? What else is the purpose of having a FORUM, if not to blither to each other?

Definitely in the wrong place, am i...
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Re: Postures of Taijiquan

Postby Dvivid » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:40 pm

Another way to say it is, rather than complain so much, lead by example.

There are many excellent practitioners in martial arts society (not martial-arts-enthusiast society). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQdEreb1oD0&feature=plcp
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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