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brer_momonga wrote:I'm not sure if it most reflects my thinking about Tai Chi - but I distinctly remember being deeply impressed by the concept of the body lifting straight up like a marionette would if a single hair in the center of the head is pulled. This also works outward and applies to pores and follicles - as if the tips of arm hairs are flowers made to bloom by an intricate and delicate web of invisible strings.
pete5770 wrote:Just out of curiousity what is the idea, guote, or principle that most reflects your thinking about Tai Chi? Mine is "use 4 ounces to move 1000 pounds(or 2000 pounds depending on your skill level or what article you read)". This idea / concept fascinates me for more than a few reasons.
1.) We have all done this. Most likely at least a few times. Who hasn't just bearly touched someone and found them losing their balance? Just a touch was more than enough to push your brother into the swimming pool(of course he was probably leaning that way but none the less).
2.) I believe that with intense training people can learn to develop a sense of touch that allows them to simply put their hand / hands on someone and know immediately where to apply this 4 ounces to topple or push away that person. In reality you may not even need to touch that person. You may be able to simply see where to do this.
3.) Physics does not refute this.
4.) No force(well, 4 ounces) or strength is required. Simply the touch of a finger or the weight of a hand.
That's my main "idea" of things. Just a topic for conversation.
wpgtaiji wrote:pete5770 wrote:Just out of curiousity what is the idea, guote, or principle that most reflects your thinking about Tai Chi? Mine is "use 4 ounces to move 1000 pounds(or 2000 pounds depending on your skill level or what article you read)". This idea / concept fascinates me for more than a few reasons.
1.) We have all done this. Most likely at least a few times. Who hasn't just bearly touched someone and found them losing their balance? Just a touch was more than enough to push your brother into the swimming pool(of course he was probably leaning that way but none the less).
2.) I believe that with intense training people can learn to develop a sense of touch that allows them to simply put their hand / hands on someone and know immediately where to apply this 4 ounces to topple or push away that person. In reality you may not even need to touch that person. You may be able to simply see where to do this.
3.) Physics does not refute this.
4.) No force(well, 4 ounces) or strength is required. Simply the touch of a finger or the weight of a hand.
That's my main "idea" of things. Just a topic for conversation.
While i love a good head trip as much as the next bloke, I wonder what you think you mean by 4 ounces defeats 1000 ilbs? I ask because of the words you choose (4) no force) which is a misunderstanding of the actual meaning of the classic. I just wonder what YOU mean when you suggest that this is your favorite?
And the other, he is refering to the classic of having you head feel as if suspended from above by a piece of string. I would love to hear that posters reason for the reverance for that classic?
There is a reason I ask. Most people neve EVER get out of their heads when talking about taiji classics. This is a serious misunderstanding. The classics are merely guide posts for PHYSICAL manifestation. They were not meant to be head trips. There are very real, physical meanings for both of these principles, and they are, in general, more important to be able to do than to know the classics themselves.
I would just love to understand why you picked them.
pete5770 wrote: What is my actual understanding of the 4 ounce thing? I thought I had explained it, as far as I'm concerned.
Ask "the other" what he means. Why ask me?
Head trips? Wasn't that the 60's?
Why pick that one? I knew you wouldn't be able to resist some sort of slam on whomever posted.
To be honest, it was a bet.
wpgtaiji wrote:I only asked, not to slam, but to understand what people meant by their understanding of the classic. I wasnt asking you about brer's! I meant that i wanted to understand why he thought it was good.
wpgtaiji wrote:Thanks for confirming. I was asking if you could APPLY the classic, meaning, getting it out of your head (the head trip comment). That you have no actual physical application is enough.
wpgtaiji wrote:Dennis, you answered the question. You fail to understand that a classic is a PHYSICAL thing! It isnt a nice idea. Your explaination told me everything that is needed to know.
wpgtaiji wrote:And the other, he is refering to the classic of having you head feel as if suspended from above by a piece of string. I would love to hear that posters reason for the reverance for that classic?
wpgtaiji wrote:The classics are merely guide posts for PHYSICAL manifestation. They were not meant to be head trips. There are very real, physical meanings for both of these principles, and they are, in general, more important to be able to do than to know the classics themselves.
brer_momonga wrote:You pretty much summed it up wpgtaiji. It is a guidepost for PHYSICAL manifestation. For me, having metaphors in mind while practicing helps my body follow instructions. Like how in a breathing meditation, imagining ocean waves, how they build, crest, fall and draw back, etc. etc. - suddenly your abdomen is expanding and contracting. Say someone asks another person to explain how the body holds itself during tai chi, one might say it holds itself up like... well, (insert analogy - can be poetic, beautiful, succint, and attempt to bring epiphany).
wpgtaiji wrote:brer_momonga wrote:You pretty much summed it up wpgtaiji. It is a guidepost for PHYSICAL manifestation. For me, having metaphors in mind while practicing helps my body follow instructions. Like how in a breathing meditation, imagining ocean waves, how they build, crest, fall and draw back, etc. etc. - suddenly your abdomen is expanding and contracting. Say someone asks another person to explain how the body holds itself during tai chi, one might say it holds itself up like... well, (insert analogy - can be poetic, beautiful, succint, and attempt to bring epiphany).
The other classic referenced was 4 oz. A wonderful classic, but misunderstood my many. It doesnt mean to use no force. IT means that, when an attack comes at you, you position yourself in such a way as to minimize their force (the 1000 lbs) giving you the greater advantange. Again, this is started in push hands, and is continued into methods.
pete5770 wrote:
THAT'S what you wanted me to say. I felt that "classic" was so self explanatory that what it said didn't really have much further meaning. Hence my confusion.
wpgtaiji wrote:pete5770 wrote:
THAT'S what you wanted me to say. I felt that "classic" was so self explanatory that what it said didn't really have much further meaning. Hence my confusion.
Dennis, you are confused about so many things, this was the least of it. You still haven't given what I asked for: an APPLICATION! Stealing my words is not YOUR application (and i didnt give an application, i put a theory of the classic).
I think this topic, while admirable, is beyond many (including me). in other words, this is sort of like a bunch of pre-schoolers trying to discuss nuclear physics.
Why wouldn't the classic say "Tuck your chin"?It is not actually a raising of the head or suspending of the head. IT has to do with tucking the chin in slightly (which causes the head to appear as if raised), and we get a feeling of energy rising up the back
fazhou wrote:Why wouldn't the classic say "Tuck your chin"?It is not actually a raising of the head or suspending of the head. IT has to do with tucking the chin in slightly (which causes the head to appear as if raised), and we get a feeling of energy rising up the back
fazhou wrote:Why wouldn't the classic say "Tuck your chin"?
Josh Young wrote:I am of the opinion that those who most overthink the classics tend to be fairly advanced in skill, as opposed to beginners. The classics are pretty straightforward.
As for a few ounces dealing with thousands of lbs of force, this is taught orally as relating to the idea of divergence, big things have small beginnings and a slight change at the onset of a motion can result in a large deviation from the intention. Imagine you throw a ball very hard, but as you do so a wind gently pushed your arm to the side resulting in a slight change of angle, a few feet away the ball will arrive in the same general area that it would have, but as you move father out that little change or small force applied to the motion manifests increasingly as a larger and larger divergence.
if you apply at the right time slight pressures can indeed affect very large forces in a way that undermines their efficacy. Yang Jwing-Ming covers this well in several of his books, that using the right timing one can neutralize tremendous forces by influencing them before they have completely manifested or been fully emitted. This is not something a beginner can just go and do easily, but it is something a beginner can comprehend and work towards.
Today the classics we know consist of texts that were not, in general, public knowledge, however some were more secret than others and in some circles there are still oral teachings about them that people have avoided publishing at the request of their teachers and traditions.
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