YMAA Iron Palm?

Discuss shaolin longfist, white crane or other styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

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i give up

Postby dc » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:38 pm

"dc, you have no clue about this kind of training, I'm sorry to say. Dom's insights, after only 3 months of training, are quite profound. The fact that you cannot comprehend how it is internal is unfortunate, but I understand since you have no experience in training iron palm. However, the fact that you keep repeating that it cannot possibly be internal, that's even sadder."

thanks for the patronization. though my wai dan is stong, my nei dan is crying.

a) master yang has indeed trained iron palm to a very high level if i recall correctly.

b) i have not.

c) no where have i said iron palm is entirely of the external realm.
d) it is my opinion as an outside viewer and practitioner of other forms of qigong and wushu that there is a necessary external component to the training.

e) please don't confuse insight with opinion. it can be tricky!

can someone please describe the conditioning exercises that are part of the iron palm training? perhaps i'm just wearing foggy goggles on this one.
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Postby scramasax57 » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:48 pm

wai dan is NOT the same as purely external training. unless you spend years achieving grand circulation, your iron palm is still wai dan. that DOES NOT mean it isn't internal. it means it focuses on localizing qi where you need it, as opposed to building it up in the dan tien and then leading it where you need it. dc was right.

also, apparently we are discussing different levels of iron palm. according to dr. yang, the full "iron palm" curriculum involves using the hands to stir a pot of red hot sand, hence the other name "red sand hand". this and the use of herbs to kill nerves are what YMAA people mean when they talk about the higher level of iron palm. you appear to be referring more the middle level. so that's more a mistunderstanding than anything else. master yang is experienced with iron palm, and he does not recommend it anyone going to the higher stages and most people not even going to the middle. that's based on his EXPERIENCE, not logical guesses or inference or anything like that. so he does know what he is talking about.

They should get the chair scram.

indiscriminate hate solves nothing. absolutism solves nothing. try discussing this with master yang or any other true master of the arts, see what they say. mercy is an essential thing for a martial artist to learn. appointing yourself judge jury and executioner goes against all the teachings of humility i have ever learned. i don't want to discuss this any further.

from an article on this site, "common injuries to the joints of the arms" from the hand section:
The time when the hands had to be used as weapons is past. You do not have to condition and damage your hands to impress people. Iron sand palm training is harmful to the body, especially since you cannot predict the consequences of the training. If you need to impress people with your martial arts ability, impress them with your morality, wisdom, and knowledge.

think about it.
aka eric hinds, 2nd stripe
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yang's martial arts association

changchuan, baihe, and xingyi
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iron palm

Postby gmc » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:38 pm

From Master Wing Lam's book on Iron Palm:

"Sand was never used in Iron Palm training, but the Chinese word for sand, sha, is the same as for gravel. The Chinese word does not differentiate the size of the sand particles. Literally translating "Tie Sha1 Zhang" as "Iron Sand Palm" simply indicates that translators do not understand how Iron Palm is practiced. The practice begins with raw mung beans, then continues to sha, which large sand or gravel of the same size and shape as the mung beans. In advanced stages, tie sha, iron gravel is used. These pieces are also the same size and shape as the mung beans."

Master Wing Lam (direct lineage holder in two styles of Iron Palm) clearly states that iron gravel is the advanced stage. He states clearly that sand was never used. I guess that clears up what the advanced stage is about. As for the debate on whether or not it is true internal, it's hard to argue with those who have not trained it. But, it's not for everybody.....thank God.
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Postby scramasax57 » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:23 pm

if we are so stupid as to be incapable of understanding it because we have not trained your method, why bother talking to us about it?

i've had enough of this argument. it has degenerated from actual discussion into something not worth pursuing, in my opinion.
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Postby zipwolf » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:57 am

I just have one thing to add...

Why bother? There are health benefits from other things, you can defend yourself with other methods, you can kill people just as easily without weapons (think a triangle choke held too long so that blood no longer passes to the brain etc.) and all within the realms of gongfu. It seems a little pointless to me. Especially with what i have read being that it takes over five years to train to a good effect. Thats a lot of your life spent on doing palm training when you could be training other things in gongfu, and then living the rest of your life.
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Postby DOM » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:12 am

please scam,indisciminate hate mercy,judge jury exucutioner.These guys had no mercy for there victims.They did this for kicks they were not defending them selves or even in a gang fight.They attacked beat and killed harmless defencless homless pealpe.It gose against all the teachings of humility you have learned please.Try discussing this with Dr.Yang or any true master.Please do you realy think just because some one is against or for capital punishment makes the differance if they are a master or not.Masters of the past would kill you for much less of a reason then what these guys did.If they thought you would bring them the slightest bit of imbarresment dishoner they would kill you.If you tought someone they did not approve of or went and trained with some other master with out there permission they would kill you.
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Re: iron palm

Postby Flip » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:08 am

gmc wrote:From Master Wing Lam's book on Iron Palm:

"Sand was never used in Iron Palm training, but the Chinese word for sand, sha, is the same as for gravel. .


thanks, that's interesting.
there is a similar technique i've heard called "cinnebar palm" that involves plunging your hands into a barrell of beans, then gravel, then iron shot, and making the motion like you're rubbing hands together. eventually, so the story goes, you will be able to make the iron shot move by placing your hands over the barrell and rubbing them without actually touching the iron shot. Kind of like the training where you entinguish a candle by pointing at it. Whether this level of achivement is within the realm of realism I'm not sure.
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palm

Postby gmc » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:00 pm

Yes I heard that kind of training called "Tornado Palm" where they use fine sand, gravel and finally steel shot. Supposedly after going through all of those stages, you are able to "stir" the pot without actually placing your hands in it. It seems like those kinds of levels may have been possible, maybe long ago. I heard that Dr. Yang stated that he was nowhere near the level of his teachers. And Wing Lam also stated that he does not practice to the level of his grandteachers.
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Postby crippledhobo » Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:01 am

I've been practicing iron palm for close to 4 yrs now and my hands are completly normal, i still have sensitivity in my hands if not more than when i started. its a great training method, conditions your legs, teaches u to focus your energy, builds energy, and over time slowly conditions your hands. the way i was taught is same as wing lams method, juss drop your hand frum ear hieght onto the bag without use of muscles, guide the chi to your hands. you can tain iron palm either internally externally or a mix of both. internally you build up energy in dan tian then guide it to your hands no hitting is nessesary, external method hit bag or w/e object repeatedly with force, mix of both is what i consider wing lams method to be. and theres no need for going to a higher level than steel shot unless maybi you want to go around breaking brick buildings to impress your friends ? lol. and also for use in modern times well its strengthened my hands so much that doing daily chores such as opening bottles or carrying things stuff liek that its helped me out.
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iron palm

Postby gmc » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:47 pm

thanks for that info. may I ask, how often do you train iron palm, e.g., how many times per day, how many minutes on the steel shot, etc.? Do you employ the same type of hand massage with iron palm jow after each session as recommended by Wing Lam? Have you suffered any injuries during your training?
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Postby crippledhobo » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:18 pm

I train everyday for 20-30 mins and juss once a day, but say if i have a few days off and nothign elese to do i can go at it all day 8) :D. I always massage my hands before and after, before i start i'll either do some qigong or arm swings to heat myself up then start slowly on the gravel bag for 4 mins then move onto the steel for the remaining time. The only injuries ive had was when moving to a new bag or not being properly warmed up.

When i first started on the gravel bag i had a few small bruises due to the sharp edges of the tiny rocks but after a few days of practice everything was ok, then moving onto the steel bag i had quite a few more of the same type of bruises mainly around my knuckles when i did a back hand strike. tips always always make sure your warmed up before you start !! lol too many times i was rushed or was too excited to start practicing and didnt warm up and got a few bruises that lasted a few days. do not practice when your upset ! I remember plenty of times arguing with the gf then going to practice and my mind just wasnt on it or i was using too much muscle in the strikes causing bruises. And if your hurt dont try and be all macho and think no pain no gain, take the time to let your body heal itself.

hopefully that helps those of you who are interested in it. :D
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Postby How Ming » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:58 pm

Please use dit da jow to prevent any long term injuries. My dad met a few martial artists back in his days who suffered from arthirtis and trembling hands in their old age because of incorrect training. Dit da jow is a good treatment for your hands. Keep also in mind you dont want to over stimulate your accupuncture points in your hands. It does effect certain internal organs and can also cause impotence. You want to avoid problems later in life.

Just be careful. Use dit da jow or see a Chinese herbalist once awhile to make sure your not damaging yourself.
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Postby crippledhobo » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:23 pm

oops forgot to mention use plenty of jow thnx for mentioning that how ming :wink:
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Postby How Ming » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:24 am

Hey no problem. :)
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Postby gmc » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:30 pm

"Keep also in mind you dont want to over stimulate your accupuncture points in your hands. It does effect certain internal organs and can also cause impotence."

Here we go again. From Wing Lam's book:

"In fact, Iron Palm practice produces a relatively low level of stimulation over all of the points in the hand. This regular stimulation over a long period results in a overall balancing effect."

Also:

"We have never encountered impotence caused by Iron Palm practice--not even improper practice in its worst form"

This comes from a direct lineage holder in two styles of Iron Palm. I would tend to believe his experience over those who repeat these common misconceptions.
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Postby How Ming » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:17 pm

Keep in mind it depends on the type of iron palm training. Different systems have different methods. Speak to your own sifu is my advice.
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Postby DOM » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:52 pm

I find it ironic that so many are afraid of iron palm training but have no problem with certain kinds of gigung and the problems that can accure wile training it,like becomming paralized or even death.Infertility and impotence are nothing compaired to this.Is it intirley safe,is any martial art!Dr.yang said there were 10 levels of white crane iron palm and the first few were pretty safe to do.From what I can tell there are only three that wing lam teaches.I did hear that there were more levels but he dose not teach them.Maybe the other levels are to dangerous.Their is one thing I do know,is a martial artist must condition his weapons and body to some degrea for striking and taking blows or else he is not a martial artist,it's just an art like dancing,figure skating,gymnastics,ect..I'm sorry but if you do not do this your not a martial artist no matter how many forms you know how high you can kick or how fast you can punch.There is nothing wrong with just training it as an art for self improvent it has a lot to offer in just this,but so dose playing the piano,painting,dance,yoga ect...
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Postby How Ming » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:55 pm

There is difinatly dangers with certain chi kung practices as well. Keep in mind certain hard systems only physically condition there hands. They do not use jows to pull the chi to the laogong or work the dan tien.
But one should speak to their system's sifu for their particular training methods. Each system has its own methods.
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Postby DOM » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:04 pm

what are some of the other methods?
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Postby How Ming » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:33 pm

Ask your sifu or a sifu who is willing to speak to you on such matters. (Keep in mind. You still have to keep your system's creed a secret.)
Some styles do not focus on hard (or yang) iron palm methods. Some focuses on soft internal palm mthods. Tong long for example focuses of soft internal palm methods. Part of the focus of the system's philosophy is to sense your opponents movements. In their version of sticky hand, the palm must remain sensitive and thats why they discourage hard palm conditioning.
There are certain herbal jows used & herbal pills eaten and certain hei gung methods to help pull the ging out.
Each kung fu system has their own version and methods of special palm strikes. Some use special red sand found in China while others use a hitting bag containing special herbs and so on.
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