~ Humanitarian Law ~

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~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Tue May 08, 2012 6:44 am

Greetings everyone.

Humanism is a Public Issue, Humanitarian Law is good for Public Morality.

Here are some websites about International Law.


Nuremberg Principles;
http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-nurem.htm

Geneva Conventions;
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.ns ... onventions

Human Rights;
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Civil & Political Rights;
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm

Civil Liberty;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_liberties
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby John the Monkey mind » Fri May 18, 2012 9:11 am

I think it is not always as black and white as that. Any law is open to abuse by lawyers. In the UK the Human rights legislation is an endless meal ticket for lawyers and used to inflict criminals and murderers on the public and override democracy.

Also once my rights are defined they are limited. I would much rather have a law framing the limits of the power of the state.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Sat May 19, 2012 11:08 am

Well it is very important that people pay more attention to Humanitarian Law
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sat May 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Phalanxpursos wrote:Well it is very important that people pay more attention to Humanitarian Law


Why?
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Sun May 20, 2012 10:05 am

John the Monkey mind wrote:Why?


Because then people learn what is good for them, the philosophy is very simple; We are Human beings, laws have been written on how we deserve to be treated. If people pay more attention to Civil Liberty and Civil Rights, then do people know what is good for them.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sun May 20, 2012 12:01 pm

Phalanxpursos wrote:
John the Monkey mind wrote:Why?


Because then people learn what is good for them, the philosophy is very simple; We are Human beings, laws have been written on how we deserve to be treated. If people pay more attention to Civil Liberty and Civil Rights, then do people know what is good for them.


By defining rights in law we limit them and we discourager virtue wile providing people with a sense of entitlement. Civil rights and human rights have become just another weapon of politics to attack people with. I think far from being good for people to know about them it is in fact corrosive to the spirit and to justice. They endanger the people wile draining the treasury and providing the underhand with uplifting excuses for wars of exploitation and convenience.

I am all for people being good to one another no matter their background but the body of "humanitarian law" is of little worth as far as I am concerned.

This is only my opinion but if you look at how and when it is applied you don't know if you should laugh or cry. Horrors go without sanction wile the enemies of the powerful stand to be judged and wars are justified that cost the lives of hundreds of thousands and destabilise nations.

Civil and human rights have been mostly used by criminals to get away with punishments that are a joke. Murderers have escaped deportation for the love of a cat and terrorists for fear their own people will punish them justly for their many and grave crimes.

I would not worry though if I were you as I doubt they will be off the books any time soon as lawyers are making far to much money for that to happen.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Mon May 21, 2012 10:20 am

John the Monkey mind wrote:Civil rights and human rights have become just another weapon of politics to attack people with.


I watch the news everyday and I never saw a report which stated that governments uses civil and human rights as a weapon, so I figure your statement is false.

John the Monkey mind wrote:I am all for people being good to one another no matter their background but the body of "humanitarian law" is of little worth as far as I am concerned.


It's good if you don't want people to harm eachother, but your esteem of Humanitarian law is very low.

John the Monkey mind wrote:This is only my opinion


Well that's your opinion, but please look better at the facts. I have not seen before that governments uses civil rights to attack people, that's just pure biased.

John the Monkey mind wrote:Civil and human rights have been mostly used by criminals to get away with punishments that are a joke. Murderers have escaped deportation for the love of a cat and terrorists for fear their own people will punish them justly for their many and grave crimes.


Criminals deserve to have rights, but the justice system is known for making mistakes every now and then, so yes we need better justice system.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby John the Monkey mind » Mon May 21, 2012 12:22 pm

Phalanxpursos wrote:
I watch the news everyday and I never saw a report which stated that governments uses civil and human rights as a weapon, so I figure your statement is false.


And that my friend is your problem. The main stream media is rotten to the core and you have to interpret the actual facts few as they are and not care for their opinion.

Some examples of abuse. (I will not put links for all of this as a short Google search would turn up matches and this is not a politics forum and I do not really want to make it one. Also my internet connection is slow)

In the UK human rights and equality legislation has been used as a weapon to attack a legitimate (legally puts members up for election) although controversial political party by meddling with its membership criteria (freedom of association?) and to limit and hinder Christians (workplace anti discrimination legislation selectivity based on the HRA).

Now I am not involved with the party in question or some one who would ever vote for them nor am I a fundamentalist Christian or a Catholic but this is very worrying. Human rights are also used to gag journalists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Righ ... #Criticism
Again one of the most worrying aspects is that humanitarian law gives judges power previously reserved for elected representatives and they have been abusing it to push their politics.

Governments also use human rights as an get out of jail card when they don't want to do what the people want them to and the law may require them to do. An example would be the USA and opposition to state policy on requesting ID cards during Police stops.

The UN is now campaigning for a new TAX (WTF has it got to do with human rights???) on the grounds of human rights. Now if that is not abuse what is? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nileg ... rld-scale/

Now again I am not pushing political views I am just giving examples. The examples my not evoke sympathy from a Liberal but they are never the less legitimate examples of abuse of human rights, humanitarian law and equality legislation and if anyone truly cares about the correct use of legislation and is concerned by political use of the law (even for causes they agree with) then they should accept this evidence.


In any eventuality even if it was not being abused (and it is) I would be against it on the grounds that it gives rights/entitlements rather than securing freedom in the way the magnificent US constitution does. They take different paths.

Human rights are in fact an anathema. Humans are not born with rights as nature provides no such thing. When a child is born they have no right to food. They can reasonably expect their parents to provide it but it is not an innate right. Humans instead should have a bill saying the state will not get involved to much in your life and a commitment by the state to law and order in the non progressive sense of the word.

Humanitarian law is to open for abuse by activist and could never be applied in a universal manner as the powerful will not let it be. And yes I do know a lot about it and have even had the misfortune to be trained by the Red Cross in some of it. Bodies dealing with humanitarian law are all spin and half truths.
Also the assumption of entitlement is incredibly corrosive to the spirit.

Humanitarian law in its current form is yet another barrier between a human and being free.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon May 21, 2012 3:59 pm

Phalanxpursos wrote:
John the Monkey mind wrote:Civil rights and human rights have become just another weapon of politics to attack people with.


I watch the news everyday and I never saw a report which stated that governments uses civil and human rights as a weapon, so I figure your statement is false.



mate, you can't see what governments are doing, then you have no business discussing human rights. You are uneducated in what you say is important. The news every night is FILLED with stories on how our rights are slowly degraded and freedoms are removed. They dont say it outright, but it is there IN EVERY STORY, even the weather! (ever ask why it is important to say the same weather forecast 4 to 6 times in an hour.. it doesnt change nor can it be accurately predicted! but there it is)

good luck with the fantasy mate
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby pete5770 » Mon May 21, 2012 9:32 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
Phalanxpursos wrote:
John the Monkey mind wrote:Civil rights and human rights have become just another weapon of politics to attack people with.


I watch the news everyday and I never saw a report which stated that governments uses civil and human rights as a weapon, so I figure your statement is false.



mate, you can't see what governments are doing, then you have no business discussing human rights. You are uneducated in what you say is important. The news every night is FILLED with stories on how our rights are slowly degraded and freedoms are removed. They dont say it outright, but it is there IN EVERY STORY, even the weather! (ever ask why it is important to say the same weather forecast 4 to 6 times in an hour.. it doesnt change nor can it be accurately predicted! but there it is)

good luck with the fantasy mate


Not TOTALLY off the subject but your comment about the weatherman reminded me that, as a child, I remember asking my mother how a person could keep a job that he was obviously very bad at, what with being wrong so many times.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Tue May 22, 2012 10:06 am

John the Monkey mind wrote:In the UK human rights and equality legislation has been used as a weapon to attack a legitimate (legally puts members up for election) although controversial political party by meddling with its membership criteria (freedom of association?) and to limit and hinder Christians (workplace anti discrimination legislation selectivity based on the HRA).


I read your post and I still don't have clear evidence that Human and Civil Rights are being used by governments to attack people, Hasty Generalization is a Logical Fallacy of Faulty Generalization by reaching an Inductive Generalization based upon Insufficient Evidence.

John the Monkey mind wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Act_1998#Criticism


Well sure there is criticism, it is something that comes with the job.

John the Monkey mind wrote:Governments also use human rights as an get out of jail card when they don't want to do what the people want them to and the law may require them to do. An example would be the USA and opposition to state policy on requesting ID cards during Police stops.


Don't blame every single mistake the government makes on Human Rights, it makes no sense to me.

John the Monkey mind wrote:The UN is now campaigning for a new TAX (WTF has it got to do with human rights???) on the grounds of human rights. Now if that is not abuse what is? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nileg ... rld-scale/


I did hear something like this on the news about 2 years ago, well the United Nations isn't doing their job correctly these days.

John the Monkey mind wrote:Human rights are in fact an anathema. Humans are not born with rights as nature provides no such thing.


That is your opinion, I came here to 'spread Human Rights, instead it had an opposite effect.

wpgtaiji wrote:mate, you can't see what governments are doing, then you have no business discussing human rights.


You are mocking me about Human Rights, you taunted me and I replied.

wpgtaiji wrote:The news every night is FILLED with stories on how our rights are slowly degraded and freedoms are removed.


I am familiar with this, why do you think I bring up the topic.
Last edited by Phalanxpursos on Wed May 30, 2012 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Wed May 23, 2012 7:32 am

John the Monkey mind sure I would like to keep on good terms with you, but I got to tell you that you commited Defamation in written form, what you did is post False Information wich is damaging to the good reputation of this topic.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/defamation?s=t
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby John the Monkey mind » Wed May 23, 2012 3:03 pm

Phalanxpursos wrote:John the Monkey mind sure I would like to keep on good terms with you, but I got to tell you that you commited Defamation in written form, what you did is post False Information wich is damaging to the good reputation of this topic.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/defamation?s=t
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation


Defamation of a law. lol

See this is the problem human rights law is often pushed in a some what fascist manner. The idea that it is against the law to question the reasoning and benefit of a law is crazy and an incredibly dark path.

I was responding to your post of your opinion that human rights are something we should all know about and love. I disagree. This is a forum not a board for unchallenged statements.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby pete5770 » Wed May 23, 2012 3:31 pm

John the Monkey mind wrote:
Phalanxpursos wrote:John the Monkey mind sure I would like to keep on good terms with you, but I got to tell you that you commited Defamation in written form, what you did is post False Information wich is damaging to the good reputation of this topic.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/defamation?s=t
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation


The idea that it is against the law to question the reasoning and benefit of a law is crazy and an incredibly dark path.

This is a forum not a board for unchallenged statements.


Really good stuff John. Actually wish I had said that.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Thu May 24, 2012 8:55 am

John the Monkey mind wrote:The idea that it is against the law to question the reasoning and benefit of a law is crazy and an incredibly dark path.

This is a forum not a board for unchallenged statements.


Look I really don't mind because I am not that strict, we need to have more Liberty because Freedom is a Natural Law. So you can have your Freedom of Speech and I can have my Freedom of Speech, but there are also Laws regarding Written Language. Eventhough there is Liberty, you also need Discipline to balance out the facts. So Freedom by itself is not enough, you also need Discipline. Look I just did some reading about Formal Science, so I recognised the mistakes in your argumentation. Vacating the Premise is a sign of Fallacy, but you make a Fallacy but you don't withdraw your statement. John the Monkey mind I told you where the mistakes are, but you just keep on going. Other people giving you back up, so it has a snowball effect.

Quote about Bandwagoning:

The bandwagon effect is a well documented form of groupthink in behavioral science and has many applications. The general rule is that conduct or beliefs spread among people, as fads and trends clearly do, with "the probability of any individual adopting it increasing with the proportion who have already done so". As more people come to believe in something, others also "hop on the bandwagon" regardless of the underlying evidence. The tendency to follow the actions or beliefs of others can occur because individuals directly prefer to conform, or because individuals derive information from others.

That is what is also happening here.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby Brian » Thu May 24, 2012 10:31 am

Look I really don't mind because I am not that strict, we need to have more Liberty because Freedom is a Natural Law. So you can have your Freedom of Speech and I can have my Freedom of Speech, but there are also Laws regarding Written Language. Eventhough there is Liberty, you also need Discipline to balance out the facts.


You talk about Freedom, Freedom of Speech, Liberty as if everyone had these things....do you think they have these things in Russia, Iraq, Iran, China, Cuba...eh? You intelecualise ad nauseum about Idealistic Theory but choose to ignore what is happening all over the world.
You talk of Discipline....discipline in what??

So Freedom by itself is not enough, you also need Discipline. Look I just did some reading about Formal Science, so I recognised the mistakes in your argumentation. Vacating the Premise is a sign of Fallacy, but you make a Fallacy but you don't withdraw your statement. John the Monkey mind I told you where the mistakes are, but you just keep on going. Other people giving you back up, so it has a snowball effect.


You should apply some of that 'Formal Science' to your own argument..and see your own mistakes.

As for others backing up 'john the monkey mind'....well you said it yourself...Freedom of Speech, both written and spoken.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby John the Monkey mind » Fri May 25, 2012 3:22 am

Phalanxpursos wrote:
Look I really don't mind because I am not that strict, we need to have more Liberty because Freedom is a Natural Law. So you can have your Freedom of Speech and I can have my Freedom of Speech, but there are also Laws regarding Written Language. Eventhough there is Liberty, you also need Discipline to balance out the facts.


Image

Phalanxpursos wrote:Quote about Bandwagoning:

The bandwagon effect is a well documented form of groupthink in behavioral science and has many applications. The general rule is that conduct or beliefs spread among people, as fads and trends clearly do, with "the probability of any individual adopting it increasing with the proportion who have already done so". As more people come to believe in something, others also "hop on the bandwagon" regardless of the underlying evidence. The tendency to follow the actions or beliefs of others can occur because individuals directly prefer to conform, or because individuals derive information from others.

That is what is also happening here.


No it is what is happening with human rights law. Human rights law and equality have been a disaster in the UK. Its not like we were all slaves before it was on the books in fact we were one of the most free nations in the world. The human girths act and the equality legislation that followed has had a hugely negative effect on society and on freedom, especially freedom of speech.

Still people will not remove it from the books because if your not for human rights you must be bad or mad in the elite liberal mind. Normal people in the UK would probably (a high likelihood) scrap the act if given a referendum.

My objection is based on a moral objection to entanglements as they are artificial and degrade human spirit and based on a mistrust of excessive law in the hands of judges and people in politics as they will abuse it.
There is no contradiction in that argument.

Its the same effect that keeps the animal right groups and so called anti fascists groups out on the streets when they often use violence and intimidation to push their politics against others who have broken no law.
How can they still keep using violence in politics in the modern western world???

Well who is against animal rights and people who don't like fascists? No political party will deal with their criminality and David Cameron is a dignitary for the Anti-fa despite their regular violent demonstrations and assaults.

You don't have to be pro fascist or anti animals to see the problem with political cowardice and people being unwilling to challenge groups and ideas with positive names just a free thinker.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby pete5770 » Fri May 25, 2012 6:40 am

Phalanxpursos wrote:
John the Monkey mind wrote:The idea that it is against the law to question the reasoning and benefit of a law is crazy and an incredibly dark path.

This is a forum not a board for unchallenged statements.


Look I really don't mind because I am not that strict, we need to have more Liberty because Freedom is a Natural Law. So you can have your Freedom of Speech and I can have my Freedom of Speech, but there are also Laws regarding Written Language. Eventhough there is Liberty, you also need Discipline to balance out the facts. So Freedom by itself is not enough, you also need Discipline. Look I just did some reading about Formal Science, so I recognised the mistakes in your argumentation. Vacating the Premise is a sign of Fallacy, but you make a Fallacy but you don't withdraw your statement. John the Monkey mind I told you where the mistakes are, but you just keep on going. Other people giving you back up, so it has a snowball effect.

Quote about Bandwagoning:

The bandwagon effect is a well documented form of groupthink in behavioral science and has many applications. The general rule is that conduct or beliefs spread among people, as fads and trends clearly do, with "the probability of any individual adopting it increasing with the proportion who have already done so". As more people come to believe in something, others also "hop on the bandwagon" regardless of the underlying evidence. The tendency to follow the actions or beliefs of others can occur because individuals directly prefer to conform, or because individuals derive information from others.

That is what is also happening here.


Just yesterday I posted a quote that really seems to apply to what you're telling us.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it."
Andre Gide
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby Phalanxpursos » Fri May 25, 2012 8:21 am

Brian wrote:You talk about Freedom, Freedom of Speech, Liberty as if everyone had these things....do you think they have these things in Russia, Iraq, Iran, China, Cuba...eh? You intelecualise ad nauseum about Idealistic Theory but choose to ignore what is happening all over the world.


Hey buddy, aparently don't we know eachother so good. I used to worry about the problems in the world, until I figured out that you achieve more by educating people. But you don't want to be educated, instead you resist me for some unclear reason. Look I watch the news almost every day OK, so I know what sort of problems are out there in the world.


Brian wrote:You talk of Discipline....discipline in what??


Freedom in daily life, Discipline in daily life.

Brian wrote:You should apply some of that 'Formal Science' to your own argument..and see your own mistakes.


Brian don't use my own statements against me OK, thank you.


John the Monkey mind wrote:No it is what is happening with human rights law. Human rights law and equality have been a disaster in the UK. Its not like we were all slaves before it was on the books in fact we were one of the most free nations in the world. The human girths act and the equality legislation that followed has had a hugely negative effect on society and on freedom, especially freedom of speech.


Well that is your opinion, but please look at the facts.

John the Monkey mind wrote:Still people will not remove it from the books because if your not for human rights you must be bad or mad in the elite liberal mind.


I look at it from a linguistic perspective, if you make mistakes, then do I correct you on your mistakes, but it seems your attention is somewhere else.

John the Monkey mind wrote:How can they still keep using violence in politics in the modern western world???


Well I think it's because we are still living in the stone age or dark age, so I figure we ought to use Humanitarian Law to get out of the stone age or dark age.

John the Monkey mind wrote:You don't have to be pro fascist or anti animals to see the problem with political cowardice and people being unwilling to challenge groups and ideas with positive names just a free thinker.


I am Syncretist, so I believe in Religious Harmony and Greek Philosophy. Stoicism preaches that Liberty is a Natural Law (Themis), so the main issue with Stoicism is Law. So yes I am Stoic Syncretist, I believe in Freedom, Discipline and Religious Harmony. Humanitas (Humanism) is from the Roman Republic, the Roman Republic regarded Humanism as refinement of Civilization. The Romans used Humanitas for Expansionistic Purposes, Humanitas is what brought Civilization to early Europe. Because I am Syncretist, that's why I am alowed to believe in more than one religion, follow more than one culture and practice more than one philosophy.


pete5770 wrote:Just yesterday I posted a quote that really seems to apply to what you're telling us.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it."
Andre Gide


OK, thanks for sharing that with us.
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Re: ~ Humanitarian Law ~

Postby pete5770 » Fri May 25, 2012 8:36 am

Phalanxpursos wrote: Because I am Syncretist, that's why I am alowed to believe in more than one religion, follow more than one culture and practice more than one philosophy.



Just who or what is it that ALLOWS you to believe in more than one relegion, etc? :? :?
Sounds like YOU need permission to do this? :? :?
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