Stepping

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Stepping

Postby pete5770 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:10 pm

Opinions please????? "wpgtaiji" has said he feels that taking a step in the Tai Chi form is simply slow motion walking. Exactly like when you walk down the street, only slower. I feel that there is a bit more to it than that. To me it involves having all your weight on one foot as your other foot moves ahead toward it's next position. Note that while this is happening there is no weight being shifted forward until the foot actually touches the ground. THEN whatever weight shifting is going to happen actually starts. Walking down the street, on the other hand, is different because weight shifting is constant due to momentum and your forward foot hits the concrete already weighted, if you will. Anyone following my thoughts?????
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Re: Stepping

Postby adamfuray » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:14 pm

stepping always precedes shifting your weight, and it should always be done at an angle in relation to the direction you are moving. EXAMPLE: if you are facing east, your steps do not land directly on an east-west line, but somewhat north or south. when stepping forward, the heel touches first, when stepping backwards, the toe touches first.
"I know sir, that I have played out of tune, but when I learn where to place my fingers, this shall no longer happen."-Giovanni Bottesini
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Re: Stepping

Postby John the Monkey mind » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:05 am

adamfuray wrote:stepping always precedes shifting your weight, and it should always be done at an angle in relation to the direction you are moving. EXAMPLE: if you are facing east, your steps do not land directly on an east-west line, but somewhat north or south. when stepping forward, the heel touches first, when stepping backwards, the toe touches first.


It reminds me of the book of five rings. It says to make your martial stepping your everyday stepping and your everyday stepping your martial stepping. Its not that its the same as everyday walking but that it becomes your everyday walk.
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Re: Stepping

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:00 am

pete5770 wrote:Opinions please????? "wpgtaiji" has said he feels that taking a step in the Tai Chi form is simply slow motion walking.


I never wrote anything remotely close to that! I put THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE TEACH, not what is. This is your biggest problem. You dont read nor understand. Please, if you are going to start a discussion and reference something, get it right the first time... well, at least the first 10 times (for you). Ignorance is bliss.
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Re: Stepping

Postby pete5770 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:44 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote:Opinions please????? "wpgtaiji" has said he feels that taking a step in the Tai Chi form is simply slow motion walking.


I never wrote anything remotely close to that! I put THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE TEACH, not what is. This is your biggest problem. You dont read nor understand. Please, if you are going to start a discussion and reference something, get it right the first time... well, at least the first 10 times (for you). Ignorance is bliss.


So you agree with my ideas on Tai Chi walking? :?
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Re: Stepping

Postby pete5770 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:50 am

John the Monkey mind wrote:
adamfuray wrote:stepping always precedes shifting your weight, and it should always be done at an angle in relation to the direction you are moving. EXAMPLE: if you are facing east, your steps do not land directly on an east-west line, but somewhat north or south. when stepping forward, the heel touches first, when stepping backwards, the toe touches first.


It reminds me of the book of five rings. It says to make your martial stepping your everyday stepping and your everyday stepping your martial stepping. Its not that its the same as everyday walking but that it becomes your everyday walk.


An interesting idea but I'm having a bit of trouble picturing myself walking around the block that way. Although I did once tell someone, who wanted to improve her cloud arms, to just walk around the block doing it. No word on whether she did this or not. Probably thought the better of it as what would the neighbors think. :wink:
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Re: Stepping

Postby Josh Young » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:22 am

pete5770 wrote:it involves having all your weight on one foot as your other foot moves ahead toward it's next position. Note that while this is happening there is no weight being shifted forward until the foot actually touches the ground. THEN whatever weight shifting is going to happen actually starts. Walking down the street, on the other hand, is different because weight shifting is constant due to momentum and your forward foot hits the concrete already weighted, if you will. Anyone following my thoughts?????



I followed them.

I walk a lot, 6-10 miles a day. I don't put my weight into my front foot until after my (font heel)foot has been placed, then I shift my weight to the front foot, rolling to the ball of the foot as I lift the heel of the back foot. Basically I don't put my weight into my feet until they are positioned.

John the Monkey mind wrote:It reminds me of the book of five rings. It says to make your martial stepping your everyday stepping and your everyday stepping your martial stepping. Its not that its the same as everyday walking but that it becomes your everyday walk.


I use the name "The book of the five elements" which is another translation of the title, but yes, being familiar with this work one should note that the methods of Musashi revolve around walking and resemble two practices, one is a form of drumming, one is walking.

Musashi in his teachings concerns himself not only with weight transfer, but kinetic force transfer in terms of overall structure and unity. The line of force extends from the rear foot to the lead hand, which crosses the chest diagonally, the lead hand and rear foot always being opposites, such as left hand right foot. This has a lot to do with striking/cut methods of Musahsi, which do not resemble that of modern iaido or Kendo.

I am convinced that walking is excellent exercise and can be very useful in terms of martial development. In terms of walking the timing of shifting of the weight seems trivial compared to how it is shifted, such as the hips/waist controlling the motion.

In some schools they teach to lift the heel and the ball of the foot at the same time. For me this is a very unnatural motion that breaks some core rules/principals about motion. I tend to follow the natural flow of the body, which can be seen in the joint structure in sequence. The foot thing reminds me of the arm, if you are moving the arm do you move the fingers/wrist/elbow/shoulders all at once or do you use the whole thing in a flowing manner? If your motion is controlled by the hips/waist you would naturally move your elbow before your fingers, for me this is also true for the footwork, matching what Adam said:
adamfuray wrote: when stepping forward, the heel touches first, when stepping backwards, the toe touches first.


There are some very good reasons for this that might not be readily apparent. If you have to be agile you can't lift and set the foot down as a unit. It is like stepping on a nail, if you put your weight onto the heel first and moved forward and then felt the nail, you can stop before you complete your motion, the same is true backwards. However lifting and setting the foot as single unit that does not articulate in sequence costs a lot of agility and looks very clumsy.

You can see that some groups and individuals waddle and shift their weight back and forth in a very clumsy way, in forms and in push hands, by moving their foot as a unit. It is one of my favorite mistakes to play against and I'd rather they keep doing it instead of learn to get it right.
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Re: Stepping

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:15 pm

pete5770 wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote:Opinions please????? "wpgtaiji" has said he feels that taking a step in the Tai Chi form is simply slow motion walking.


I never wrote anything remotely close to that! I put THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE TEACH, not what is. This is your biggest problem. You dont read nor understand. Please, if you are going to start a discussion and reference something, get it right the first time... well, at least the first 10 times (for you). Ignorance is bliss.


So you agree with my ideas on Tai Chi walking? :?

Not at all! what you describe is taiji jibberish. Remember, I dont believe you do anything that resembles taiji. I believe someone taught you Ballet and passed it off and you bought it. And I dont believe you can even do what you wrote, so NO. I dont agree with you.
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Re: Stepping

Postby caesar » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:00 pm

Josh...

can you give examples that what martial arts teach you to lift and land with heel and ball of the foot at the same time, moving the unit as on as you described? Is this different than mud stepping from bagua that you mean?
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Re: Stepping

Postby pete5770 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:31 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:Not at all! what you describe is taiji jibberish. Remember, I dont believe you do anything that resembles taiji. I believe someone taught you Ballet and passed it off and you bought it. And I dont believe you can even do what you wrote, so NO. I dont agree with you.


Can you give us your ideas on this "walking"?
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Re: Stepping

Postby nitsuj » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:32 pm

How can you discuss details of ANY movement in taijiquan without mentioning the dan tian? Tell us what happens, starting with a specific posture (to orientate us), describe what happens with yi, qi, and dan tian... and walk us through to the next posture. What happens to the qi between the apex of the lift and the returning decent?

If you can't provide a through explanation, there is a good chance that your theory is incorrect.
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Re: Stepping

Postby pete5770 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:49 pm

nitsuj wrote:How can you discuss details of ANY movement in taijiquan without mentioning the dan tian? Tell us what happens, starting with a specific posture (to orientate us), describe what happens with yi, qi, and dan tian... and walk us through to the next posture. What happens to the qi between the apex of the lift and the returning decent?

If you can't provide a through explanation, there is a good chance that your theory is incorrect.


So what are your thoughts on the subject? :?
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Re: Stepping

Postby nitsuj » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:13 am

My thoughts are that this post is meant to stir up argument, rather then gather info. Saying, "so-and-so thinks this, but I think that; what do you think?" Is a pretty childish way to gather information. I get the sense it's more of a competition than a search for truth.


I ALSO think discussing this with your sifu will get you where you need to go.

On TOP of these opinions, I think that your lack of response to my post suggest that you really haven't thought through your confusion.
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Re: Stepping

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:53 am

nitsuj wrote:How can you discuss details of ANY movement in taijiquan without mentioning the dan tian? Tell us what happens, starting with a specific posture (to orientate us), describe what happens with yi, qi, and dan tian... and walk us through to the next posture. What happens to the qi between the apex of the lift and the returning decent?

If you can't provide a through explanation, there is a good chance that your theory is incorrect.


nitsuj wrote:My thoughts are that this post is meant to stir up argument


So you are one of those! The MAIN problem with internal arts today is that teachers want to look important to their students. Because they never learned anything REAL from their teacher, they have to hide behind this with words and ideas. They have turned taiji into a series of postures that they can describe "this is peng. It means to ward off slanting upward. That means that your qi flows this way and you will never ever be hurt by an attacker. RELAX!!" BS

When you move, qi moves from the dantien! IT HAS TOO! Does it ever move in the same way twice? NO! There are a variety of things that affect qi flow (diet, time of day, thoughts, etc) so you CANNOT worry about something that you have ZERO control over. It is the charlatans that have got people to believe that they can control QI! Its like a fish believing they can control the water they live in! The very best they can do is go with the current (which is all it ever is anyway).

You dont seem to realize that there is ONE MOVEMENT in taiji. All the postures dont exist! They are beginners constructs to help them understand what could be going on. They arent real. WIthin each of these "postures", what is really going on are interactions of yin to yang and back again (to infinity). And you want have that put into words. Great for you. You first! I dont have the time nor care too.

Stop pandering airy-fairy ideas and get real. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5sCDJtmOHM&feature=plcp This video is one of the most disappointing on the net. Jou's idea on Torso method (which could be to what you refer in your vagueness) is brilliant. To bad his "top" student has zero ability to manifest any of it on this clip. So, if the masters dont even know, how do you know? Please explain yourself. If you want to argue, you really need to argue, and not hide behind vagueness. Oh right... this is a forum.
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Re: Stepping

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:46 am

nitsuj wrote:My thoughts are that this post is meant to stir up argument, rather then gather info. Saying, "so-and-so thinks this, but I think that; what do you think?" Is a pretty childish way to gather information. I get the sense it's more of a competition than a search for truth.


I ALSO think discussing this with your sifu will get you where you need to go.

On TOP of these opinions, I think that your lack of response to my post suggest that you really haven't thought through your confusion.


Well, I wasn't looking to write a book on the subject, it was a fairly simple question about shifting weight and foot movement. I don't see it as a childish way of gathering info. Everyone has ideas, not all of which have merit but you can learn something from just about everyone.
And I'm not really confused about stepping, just looking to see what other ideas are out there and maybe, just maybe, glean a little nugget of wisdom from someone elses view.
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Re: Stepping

Postby nitsuj » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:20 am

Sorry Pete, maybe I read into it more than I should have. To me, it seemed that presenting the two views- WITHOUT mentioning other members names- would work just as well, if not better, than saying, "I think this; so-and-so thinks this"; it would attempt to facilitate discussion rather than argument... but who am I to be the tact police?

WPG: SO, you're one of those huh? You're point is what? You don't think that taiji principles can be explained? You don't think Chinese medicine can be understood and discussed? Are you saying that REAL "teachers" do not use these common terms, or tell their students to relax?

Dan tian: Sure, qi moves from dantian and circulates throughout the body; when it doesn't, you're dead. As far as not moving the same way twice, I guess that hundreds of years of compressed Chinese medical theory means nothing (to you). Pathways of energy movement have been studied for a long time. Established qi pathways might suggest that qi indeed DOES follow a path more than once in a persons lifetime.
Control: Moving from A to B requires intention and qi. The idea happens; movement begins. Obviously, you have choices of how to get from A to B... you control the qi according to how you get there. It does involve a little more depth to the whole thing, but I think this puts your idea that we can't control qi to rest. BTW, Fa Jin?

One Movement: I see your point. According to your thinking, there should be not one, but three movements: wuji, taiji, wuji. Ultimately, I like to think that the great masters before us knew what they were talking about when they decided to break the form up into parts, and give them names.

HERE IS MY ULTIMATE POINT: Bickering over what your foot does is superficial. Take a look at what is going on with the rest of "you" and you might find other problems to fix, which might lead you to an answer.
William Chen had an excellent article in the Spring 2011 issue of T'ai Chi magazine that covers movement of our lower half.

I'll give YOU a link to explore that covers the absolute fundamentals of taiji. You will see the importance of utilizing the dan tian rotation (see also Chen Xaiowang's application videos for the opposite end of the spectrum). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KxjA8fOJZ0

I hardly think that posting a video that you describe as garbage makes any point at all.

Arguing is only about being right. DISCUSSION is aimed at understanding. Telling me to "get real", and to "stop pandering" suggests you're not interested in mutual understanding; rather you're interested in being right. Given this, and that you lack any clear understanding of taiji (though you certainly are full of pride and MISUNDERSTANDING), you should probably should probably find a decent teacher, practice more, and pick this conversation in another year. With any luck you'll be pointed in the right direction...
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Re: Stepping

Postby caesar » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:30 am

Arguing is only about being right. DISCUSSION is aimed at understanding.


Nice that you brought this up! I believe every forum would get much more helpful and pleasant for everyone if posts wouldn't consist of so much hatred, bitterness, arrogance and boring sarcastic lines.

After all...isn't martial arts about becoming one with the universe and be friends with everyone? ;)
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Re: Stepping

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:27 pm

nitsuj wrote:HERE IS MY ULTIMATE POINT: Bickering over what your foot does is superficial. Take a look at what is going on with the rest of "you" and you might find other problems to fix, which might lead you to an answer.


I agree that bickering is superficial. However what you foot does is a different matter entirely. IMHO nothing is more important in the martial arts than footwork and a stable stance. Sure, other things tie into this but without stability and proper movement of the feet to new positions, the rest of your body doesn't stand a chance. I guess I'm saying footwork first THEN whatever else it is you need to do and not the other way around.
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Re: Stepping

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:51 pm

Lol. No. ONE MOVE!! I had more, but i reread what waa put. That is enough. One movement.
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Re: Stepping

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:44 am

wpgtaiji wrote:Lol. No. ONE MOVE!! I had more, but i reread what waa put. That is enough. One movement.

Sorry if my sarcasm is showing but have you ever made a mistake in life? :?
Any possibility that your ideas could be wrong? :?
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