Stance

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Stance

Postby pete5770 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:23 pm

A quick question on peoples preferences. Ma bu stance. Do any / all people perform this stance with the LOWER legs perpendicular to the floor(as a column) or do you simply allow the legs to fall into whatever natural slope they take as they go towards the hip? The former being a concsious thing and the latter being, well, not so much?.
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Re: Stance

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:31 pm

Holy dren! Has pete finally coming around to qigong???

pete, i know you think you are safe, talking about ma bu holding, but mate, its a qigong! There is really no other reason to hold ma bu for 10 hours at a time. Oh wait? Only 10 minutes? My mistake!

I know the externies tell you its to build muscle strength, stamina, and posture, but all of that is just code for "na na we got you to do qigong without you knowing it!" Gotcha!

As to your question, the shaolin types like parallel thigh to floor. That is good for no one! You can get just as much or more from a shoulder width stance with the knees bent so that the cap falls just at the tip of the longest toe. I know, it doesnt sound like much! Being an ex-karate guy, who held mabu for 1 hour a day for a long period, i figured that this would be a piece of cake! WRONG! If you let your knees out too far, even bent, you cause a hell of a lot of strain on the joint. It took me 6 months to a year of standing in this lesser stance to allow the joints to heal, and even now, they still act up at times.

Deep stances, in my opinion, and experience, are a relic of the dangerous old days.

Welcome to qigong mate! Glad you came around, finally!
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Re: Stance

Postby yat_chum » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:13 am

Hi wpgtaiji

Deep stances, in my opinion, and experience, are a relic of the dangerous old days.


could you please explain this statement.
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Re: Stance

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:44 am

wpgtaiji wrote:Holy dren! Has pete finally coming around to qigong???

pete, i know you think you are safe, talking about ma bu holding, but mate, its a qigong! There is really no other reason to hold ma bu for 10 hours at a time. Oh wait? Only 10 minutes? My mistake!

I know the externies tell you its to build muscle strength, stamina, and posture, but all of that is just code for "na na we got you to do qigong without you knowing it!" Gotcha!



Qigong aside, what's with the 10 hours-10 minutes thing? All I was asking was what peoples opinons were on whether the LOWER legs should be perpendicular to the ground or sloping up to the knee when in a ma bu stance(when viewing said person from the front).
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Re: Stance

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:00 am

yat_chum wrote:Hi wpgtaiji

Deep stances, in my opinion, and experience, are a relic of the dangerous old days.


could you please explain this statement.
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Re: Stance

Postby yat_chum » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:47 am

Hi wpgtaiji
I was more interested in the "relic of the dangerous old days" bit.
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Re: Stance

Postby yat_chum » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:15 am

Hi pete5770 , it been a very long time since I have done such a stance but if memory serves me well the legs were meant to be perpendicular to the ground, I only used to raise the stance to rest the legs.
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Re: Stance

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:32 pm

yat_chum wrote:Hi wpgtaiji
I was more interested in the "relic of the dangerous old days" bit.


AHH!

Well, in the "old" days, they told us to do a lot of insane things that actually hurt the body (not build it up like the lies they tell you it is supposed to do). So we have these ridiculous deep mabu sessions of one hour and the end result... bad knees! LOL I know it isnt 100% true, that there are a few people who said they did that sort of thing with no bad results, its just that these people are not old enough to actually feel the results yet (like i have said, i am approaching 30 years of training soon). Can it be repaired? In some cases, yes. But not the way they taught it too us.

To look at the issue another way, how do we do our conditioning parts of training? Push ups, sit ups, leg raises, stretches, running, jump rope, and if we are saddistic, hit things! I did it all! And to a point, i was in "shape", but who has 2 hours to devote to that sort of thing after they finish puberty? LOL

What I am meaning is, in the time since those "old" days, I have done research into other methods of doing things. It gets crazy! I have heard people getting stupid strength results with weights 1 session PER MONTH, for 10 mins total time in! I am working on a cardio program now that treats the cardio system like any other MUSCLE system, meaning, I am getting results with only 3 minutes (including rest) of jumping rope 3 times per week! There are many other ideas that have turned out to be false as well.

When i refer to the old days, it is this false information that is passed along as gospel that people assume is safe, when it isnt. IN MY OPINION, you shouldnt do mabu for leg conditioning! There are much better ways to do that that actually help and heal the legs/knees. If you choose to do it, do it for qigong. IF you do it for qigong, there are less aggressive and therefore, more beneficial (because you are not hurting the body) ways to get the structure aspects taught in mabu. It is a matter of research and understanding.

Today, people look at martial artists and think we are insane! And by all rights, YES! There are methods that should have gone away centuries ago, but are still around. Why? EGO! "I can do iron palm so i am special", sure, but look at your hands. "I am a surgeon so i dont care that you crush bricks, I HEAL and GIVE LIFE with my hands." (no i am not a surgeon, nor md, nor doctor). If people today, are still teaching the way their great great teacher taught things, then there is a huge problem, and that art deserves to die out.
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Re: Stance

Postby Josh Young » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:06 am

If you hand the sack of grain to a man, he can stack it, but...

wpgtaiji wrote:Well, in the "old" days, they told us to do a lot of insane things that actually hurt the body


if you give it to an infant it will be crushed.


Pete, I did ma-bu training with my lower legs very close to perpendicular, from the front view.
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Re: Stance

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:02 pm

Josh Young wrote:If you hand the sack of grain to a man, he can stack it, but...

wpgtaiji wrote:Well, in the "old" days, they told us to do a lot of insane things that actually hurt the body


if you give it to an infant it will be crushed.


Pete, I did ma-bu training with my lower legs very close to perpendicular, from the front view.

I am not sure what that means, but to make my point clear, just because something has been done for 100 years, does not make it the best way (and vice versa, just because something is new, does not make it superior).
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Re: Stance

Postby Josh Young » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:21 pm

It means that absolutes lack wisdom.

That certainty, is the sign of ignorance...

Two trees were in a storm
it tossed them about
one was broken and died
one grew stronger

two men came along
one pointed to the broken dead tree and said
"storms break trees"
the other saw the strong tree and said
"storms make trees strong"
and so they argued
not being wise enough to realize that being right
does not mean that others are wrong
even in terms of contradicting beliefs

they both died
they went to hell
there they are cursed for all time and eternity
to moderate online discussion forums about martial arts
just like this one
:|
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Re: Stance

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:36 pm

Josh Young wrote:It means that absolutes lack wisdom.

That certainty, is the sign of ignorance...

Then Josh, you is in TROUBLE! Almost everything you have ever posted on this forum has been "I KNOW THIS 150%" or some variant of that, despite my attempts to maybe, loosen up some of those beliefs!

Good luck mate.
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Re: Stance

Postby Josh Young » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:57 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
Then Josh, you is in TROUBLE! Almost everything you have ever posted on this forum has been "I KNOW THIS 150%" or some variant of that, despite my attempts to maybe, loosen up some of those beliefs!


Not at all Gord, I've essentially never taken such a stance, not here and not elsewhere.

You are not aware of the content of my posts by your own admission.
I don't take a stance of certainty, it doesn't work with my belief system.

If you actually read my posts you would know that!
You really have no clue what I believe or think, or even post.
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Re: Stance

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:53 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
yat_chum wrote:Hi wpgtaiji
I was more interested in the "relic of the dangerous old days" bit.


AHH!

Well, in the "old" days, they told us to do a lot of insane things that actually hurt the body (not build it up like the lies they tell you it is supposed to do).

When i refer to the old days, it is this false information that is passed along as gospel....


Careful or I'll have to use those two arguements against you in one of our Qigong battles. :wink: In any case, or at least in my case, doing ma bu has not yet resulted in any injury and I'm 63. Then again I have never had knee / leg problems other than a hamstring issue that wants to bite me now and again. For me it's been a great leg strengthening part of my life. I don't spend hours a day at it. Who could? A bit too boring for that. I hadn't really thought much about the lower legs being perpendicular to the floor until recently when someone pointed it out in a totally unrelated issue. My legs have always been in a more natural stance(if you will). I can understand
the stability issue in keeping them perpendicular. Think I'll see if I can be a bit more into the perpendicular style and see how it feels.
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Re: Stance

Postby Josh Young » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:47 pm

http://ymaa.com/publishing/books/extern ... hite_crane

Page 142 section on He Ma Bu
If you speed up the training you may cause serious knee injury

I think knee injury from Ma Bu is well known and understood.

In the book the legs are not particularly perpendicular, they are at an angle, but the text contains specific instruction about method and progress as well.
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Re: Stance

Postby mansao » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:48 pm

Josh Young wrote:If you hand the sack of grain to a man, he can stack it, but...

wpgtaiji wrote:Well, in the "old" days, they told us to do a lot of insane things that actually hurt the body


if you give it to an infant it will be crushed.


Pete, I did ma-bu training with my lower legs very close to perpendicular, from the front view.

lol this statement is very true

@ wpgtaiji
I believe everything should be done with progression, that way once the intensity starts to increase you already have a strong foundation that will hold and continue to get stronger

I mean dren, look at the shoalin monks! they are living proof!
If you compare their techniques of training with your techniques of training, I'm sure there will be differences and those differences is what probably caused you knee pain


if you say it is all an ego thing, that must mean you must have given in to your ego as well,
otherwise you wouldn't have kept on training even though it caused you pain and discomfort

this is how I see it, the knowledge that has been passed down for hundreds maybe thousands of years wouldn't be passed down unless they worked right?

of course, now a days, there are many teachers out there spreading the superficial knowledge but at the end of the day isn't it up to you to decipher (using the common sense you have accumulated) what is good/works for you and what isn't/doesn't?
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Re: Stance

Postby pete5770 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:59 pm

mansao wrote:
Josh Young wrote:If you hand the sack of grain to a man, he can stack it, but...

wpgtaiji wrote:Well, in the "old" days, they told us to do a lot of insane things that actually hurt the body


if you give it to an infant it will be crushed.


Pete, I did ma-bu training with my lower legs very close to perpendicular, from the front view.

lol this statement is very true

@ wpgtaiji

If you compare their techniques of training with your techniques of training, I'm sure there will be differences and those differences is what probably caused you knee pain

this is how I see it, the knowledge that has been passed down for hundreds maybe thousands of years wouldn't be passed down unless they worked right?

of course, now a days, there are many teachers out there spreading the superficial knowledge but at the end of the day isn't it up to you to decipher (using the common sense you have accumulated) what is good/works for you and what isn't/doesn't?


I would have to amend your statement to read "a slight possibility" instead of "probably".

You make a good point. Sort of a "If IT works don't fix it" thing. Only problem is this doesn't allow whatever IT is to be improved. Also, many things are believed to be true until they are proven to be wrong.

I would have to say that most teachers, of all kinds, whether they are good or bad, have good intentions. That some people weren't cut out for the job goes without saying but I feel most of them give it their best shot and are, at the very least, very interested in the subject matter.
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Re: Stance

Postby brer_momonga » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:48 pm

pete5770 wrote:A quick question on peoples preferences. Ma bu stance. Do any / all people perform this stance with the LOWER legs perpendicular to the floor(as a column) or do you simply allow the legs to fall into whatever natural slope they take as they go towards the hip? The former being a concsious thing and the latter being, well, not so much?.


my calves usually make about a 45 degree angle. I sink, but not too much. If the knee compains at all I adjust. I love mabu.
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Re: Stance

Postby pete5770 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:04 pm

brer_momonga wrote:
pete5770 wrote:A quick question on peoples preferences. Ma bu stance. Do any / all people perform this stance with the LOWER legs perpendicular to the floor(as a column) or do you simply allow the legs to fall into whatever natural slope they take as they go towards the hip? The former being a concsious thing and the latter being, well, not so much?.


my calves usually make about a 45 degree angle. I sink, but not too much. If the knee compains at all I adjust. I love mabu.


Are you talking viewed from your front or viewed from your side???
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Re: Stance

Postby brer_momonga » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:41 am

pete5770 wrote:
brer_momonga wrote:
pete5770 wrote:A quick question on peoples preferences. Ma bu stance. Do any / all people perform this stance with the LOWER legs perpendicular to the floor(as a column) or do you simply allow the legs to fall into whatever natural slope they take as they go towards the hip? The former being a concsious thing and the latter being, well, not so much?.


my calves usually make about a 45 degree angle. I sink, but not too much. If the knee compains at all I adjust. I love mabu.


Are you talking viewed from your front or viewed from your side???


knees point forward - so it would appear to be about 45 degree angle if viewed from the side.I sink, but not too much - depends on the body and how well I feel the circulation is going and what I can "push" to improve without creating too much tension. I sometimes see folks moving the knees inward a bit as well such as on fig. 5-2 from p.143 of Dr. Yang's The Essence of Shaolin White Crane: Martial Power and Qi Gong book, but I don't really practice that yet. For now, my knees are just about pointed forward.
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